[Snake]

I wouldn't say it's 'too bad', if bad at all. But one or two more in the team would be good. Once the number dropped, the old GM boys (and lady) of SL2 became forced to overclock again. We shouldn't forget that in six to seven years SL2's community grew exponentially, and so did the needs for better administration.

I think Mark covered a lot of good points. We could easily divide the infrastructure with some volunteers to help lessen the workload over things that are not exactly supposed to be a GM's direct responsibility, or working under their request.

Lore Writer is one hell of a task I'd offer both my hands on personally.

Though as usual, nothing would be perfect in that scenario. There's always the chance bad choices could result in bad outcomes that we wouldn't have if this idea went through. Being pessimistic can save some headaches from the future. And if we're selecting someone to be a new GM, can this time 'please' we get someone that's unbiased and there to do the job, knows that they'll be absolutely hated/mistrusted by the community and is not simply there to get back at a certain group that dislikes them because now they have PoWeR?

I have a dreading feeling that if the next choice is -bad-, it will ruin the game, instead of helping. He wasn't from my time, but you oldbies remember the headache Ryu-Kazuki was, eh? And he was a relatively chill guy with people who liked him!

[Slydria]

Sorry folks, speaking just for myself, I do not have the energy to devote to this role anymore. Not in the way you'd all like.

I've wanted to quit GMing for some time now but have always been holding out on it because I did not want to leave everyone high and dry without someone to fill the vacancy. My hopes has been that once we have new GMs that have been acclimatized to the role, I'd bow out for good.

While overall, I think I've done a good job. Lately, not so much. Aside from that, it's just not worth it for me anymore and funnily enough, creating icons and maps has shown me that. Not only am I having way more fun with doing the artistic side of things, not only am I actually getting compensated for my efforts, I feel like I've gotten way more respect from that than I ever have as a GM.


It doesn't help that this thread comes on the heels of me having a recent trip to the hospital and have been taking a break from things to recover.

But I'm too worn out for all of this, even without that. 11+ years of thankless work is far more than my fair share of this. Somebody else needs to do it because I simply can't anymore.

I'll still keep going for now but I'd rather we have replacements before I ultimately stop altogether. I told myself I'm going to quit being a GM this year regardless and I will hold myself to that.


As for the thread itself, I don't know what to tell you. As far as I'm aware, the GMs all agree that we need new staff and there have been talks of getting new people in.

Sub-roles could be helpful, but it ultimately still means we need more willing and able participants and that's not so simple.

[GSM]

Fine. I'll give my own piece, in my own words. Feel free to twist them to your own devices, but I just don't give a shit anymore.

This is only addressed to the group that wanted to kickstart this change. You know who you are, and I frankly don't need to call names. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you frankly don't need to worry about my post targeting you.

Before any of the admins, etc., get on my case and say that this is inflammatory in nature, I'm intentionally curbing my tongue and censoring the true extent of how I feel just so that I can be heard, as I was meant to be. I am being as civil as I possibly can.
If I need to be warned again, then so be it. I've already caught two from my half-assed meme.

I'm only going to be going over what I believe is worth discussing or talking about, in my own eyes. I'll be starting with Apple's initial post, piece by piece.

It's been... just over four months? Either that or three, it's not entirely clear. But a third of a year already, and the same topic has come up in circles, bringing me to a simple conclusion:

It simply feels like, despite it all, nothing has changed. We had the GM team become more active for a week or two, but now that seems to have fallen away again. Which, inevitably, is a problem, because it doesn't feel at all like we've gone anywhere. Most I hear is a few minor things.

Beyond the droll, corporate tone, which is an overarching theme of this entire post and belying its true nature, I will need to remind anyone at home not a part of the group they're within that this all started because of a collective tantrum within a Discord server, with people of varying opinions all present, melting down about how Dyst was the worst GM because she didn't do anything (???) and didn't respond to their application posts, be it public or private (horribly ironic for people who wanted transparency and enablement, and are now undergoing the same process as anyone else, but in private). It's almost like Ham pointed out; they're human too, and they've got their own lives. 


I agree that the inactivity of the GMs is a problem, but actively bashing a GM behind her back as a collective, and then pretending like you didn't while asking for further reforms is unnecessarily two-faced and sets a bad example, especially for an Event Staff member, regardless of if this is your true intention or if Apple is simply a mouthpiece for the larger group belying the surface (which is more than likely the case).

Let's start with the new application system. To be honest, glancing over it, it's not hard to see who the MVP of that is. Slydria has been pulling a lot of weight in seeing to applications, where there has been quite a lack of other GM input, and in a climate where people are increasingly asking for applications for races, this does feel like it is inevitably going to be unsustainable in it's current state.

While I can't confirm nor deny how much Slydria has been pulling weight, it's an actual hindrance to actively idolize one GM, and leave the rest dead in the water. Other GMs can give their own piece, but this is quite frankly disrespectful and distasteful to the rest of the GM team, especially with the context given above.


All of the applications up to this point have been for things we've needed to seek out approval for in the first place, be it height, age, et cetera. The rest have been for enabling players to do crazier shit with magic or just having a stronger presence within the world, which I don't particularly agree with, but I do appreciate that steps were taken to allow this kind of thing within the game's scope. If only everything was public, like it was called for, from the very beginning, and nothing had to be privately submitted. 

I do agree that some races need application, especially with how large the community has gotten and how many new races have been pushed into apparent strong points in terms of narrative, and the major implications of races being permitted to exist (e.g. Vampire, Dullahan, Lich, the upcoming Amalgama, Reaper and Apertaurus, especially), but it's of my stark opinion that we haven't gotten a race strong enough in the mechanical sense nor the lore sense that it'd actively require applications. The sole reason why I agree that some races need application is that I don't trust a good portion of the player base, neither novice nor veteran, with half of the "strong" narrative choices in race or to treat the race's legacy and lore with dignity and respect.

Just look at the reputation Liches have.

Regarding enforcement - we had a situation where we went days with two people wandering around with names like caramel dansen, and this was brought up in GM-help in the main discord, but only seemed to get any notice when the alleged people themselves showed up in the chat. Now, if this was a more serious offense, imagine that being unattended to?

This is such a needlessly contrived and convoluted reason to say that the GMs don't actively enforce their own rules that it physically pained me to paste this into a quote box. These people were literally not interacting in RP, and weren't bothering anyone, as they had pointed out themselves. Sure, I'd be agreeing if these people were rampantly doing stupid bullshit in the square and/or screaming nonstop about who-the-fuck-knows with distracting icons and names, but this was actually so minor that it's amazing that it's even in this post. 


New players don't actively take everything seriously, and if they wanted to try the game, then whatever, let them have their fun, and then let them make up their minds whether they want to stick around. This is exactly why some new players do not stick around in the community. 

Shoveling blame to the already-present GM team for such a minor thing not even within a few days of it being already being dealt with is seriously fucked up.

And another point to be made. Once again, it does feel like there is not enough outreach in the community from most GMs. People old and new are essentially being told to put their trust in people they may never have talked to, and may never see around whatsoever, and the fault is usually put on us for not doing so, rather than the lack of involvement from the team, which I feel is a wrong way to look at it, too. It's only sure to foster a feeling of distrust towards the team, and a feeling that they're just never there. That is very much problematic, to me.

I cannot get a point from this paragraph other than people are being forced to talk with GMs who they don't know, when... the GMs don't constantly interact with players? It's not their legal obligation, nor their job to interact with players just to have conversations. Their task is to make sure the game is moderated and healthy, and that people are following the rules. Even so, most players can speak with a GM about something for a quick second, be it in the Discord channels proper, or DMs, or the forums, or wherever, and most stuff is short and sweet.

This is another contrived point that I see absolutely no use in being in this discussion. The only reason I'm covering this paragraph is because I want to give my own accurate, concise analysis, instead of saying "yeah I support everything here" and moving on.

We very much need fresh blood on the team. We did then, and since very little has changed, we definitely do now. The amount of people I've seen echo a sentiment of this just not being okay at current is absurd - and though I don't expect anything meaningful to come of this, I might as well try again.

We need more GMs. Really, we do. And since the GM response to the last thread, we've heard nothing on the matter. But we do need them, and we need them to be active members of the community who represent us, and all. I think that this is a super important thing to consider.

Please.

I'd rather the issues with the current GM team be resolved first, THEN we look at new candidates for being a GM. 


I DO agree that new GMs would be a good thing for the game, but you have to be EX-FUCKING-TREMELY careful about who you put up in this thread as a GM recommendation. And with the context of this thread even existing in its current state, I have fair reason to believe there are VERY few actual, worthy candidates that are either in on the creation of this thread or in the group that started this fucking mess to begin with from the first forum post months ago. If you disagree, feel free to prove me wrong by writing an essay in my DMs, be it on the forums or on Discord. I'm fairly easy to find.

The last time we even got new GMs, one of them has already resigned, as Mark has already displayed in this same thread. Are we just going to give the title of Gamemaster to a revolving door cast of people that are already extremely opinionated or extremely biased, or are we going to fix the fundamental issues with the GM team that we currently have, improve from there, and then maybe consider new GMs? Who fucking knows, because it's impossible to read what this community wants half the time.

This last paragraph feels like the only thing that should've been stated from the start, because this is the true intent of the entire thread. Even then, with how blatant of a disrespect this was to the other existing GMs, with Slydria coming forth to explain how being a GM sucks for him specifically, this is a slap in the face to the dedicated community and only feels like repeating points to why someone you like should be a GM and not these people that are inactive from personal issues, or trying to resist burnout from moderating the game for longer than most people have been on the BYOND platform.

Lastly, for anyone that's going to try and argue my points as part of the group that kickstarted either of these two threads, I'm speaking as earnestly and as calmly as I can. What you're doing to a game I grew to enjoy for its leaps and bounds, and came to find many wonderful friends in, is actively revolting. I'm making this long-winded post to specifically silence this backlash of sudden GM hate that's become depressingly common on the forums, and in miscellaneous Discord servers. If you want to further your own goals, and if you want to antagonize me because I'm not part of your same group, then go ahead.

I don't care.

Now for my insultingly brief coverage of Mark's proposals:

I, PERSONALLY, feel that the only necessary addition to add beyond what we already have would just be a Lore Writer, because the world is so unnecessarily convoluted and simple at face value, and lore has become so convoluted and self-contradicting that I could literally pull out the old thread I made some years ago about how terrible it was to find an accurate list of what Vampires could and couldn't siphon focus from, in terms of blood. There's also some other aspects of the lore that need desperate revision (read: Naga) or fine tuning to be perfect and unique for a setting such as SL2 (read: Corruption, especially Shaitan).

Any other addition to the staffing of the SL2 community would just add unnecessary bloat and too many roles that have to constantly keep each other and themselves in check, with multiple people having to answer to others, and adding more internal issues with GMs and lower-ranking members where they're not really needed, as well as the worst kind of conflict; conflicts of interest.

And, finally, for Slydria:

I appreciate everything you've done for the game, inside and out of it. I'm glad to see you've found something you're happier with, and I'm glad you're able to see how far the game has come, as have all of us. I hope you recover swiftly, and I hope you're much happier once you're putting up the proverbial keys. Even if we didn't interact much, I'm glad you were there for us.

That's about all I have to say for now.

[Sarah54321]

I'm not sure why the need to call out towards this supposed 'group' is necessary, but I can understand the irritation at the idea of people bashing another. That being said, if it's not outright harassment, I don't see how it can be an issue with having an opinion on a GM/Group of people, just as you have an opinion of the group that you were talking about. It's a little hypocritical to be saying it's wrong to have an opinion, when you yourself have shown a form of negative opinion. I didn't come here to throw stones, but I wanted to point it out nonetheless.

While idolization of a single GM is bad to an extent, it also helps us show how players view the GM Team as a whole. If they were more visibly active, things wouldn't be so bad morality-wise, I believe, and it's not exactly anyone's fault that Slydria is one of the ones that stand out because he decided to take over the majority of Applications at the moment.

The whole idea of wanting new GMs is because currently, it does not appear that there is enough leg room for others because, as it's been stated, the other GMs have lives. They have their own things to stress about. Having new GMs can help with this sort of issue. Yes, it would be nice to fix the GM's current problems- but if I'll be honest, I don't see any real issue with the way GMs are operating aside from a few select things, such as how the Guards are operated currently.

I personally spoke with Dev before, and suggested Lore Writers, also. He very much was against the idea, saying it to be a bad idea. I put this statement out there to better help people understand Dev's current thought process on a couple of these ideas.

[Balor]

Anyone who feels that this is calling out GM's or expecting more from them that is reasonable. It comes off as disingenuous and unfair to the people who are politely asking for some change or transparency which I believe is completely fair. No one is calling for the heads of the GM's or stating that they need to be removed or displaced. There is no vitriol or hate being thrown with the explicit desire to hurt.

People want cleaner avenues of communication, they want to feel like they can talk to these people. I only feel truly comfortable speaking to Balthie as a friend, and or Slydria at times. It's nice that people with tenure had the time and place to come up with these people but. A lot of us didn't, and we aren't afforded the opportunities to know them as people the same way others have.

I feel Appo is asking for an olive branch, or just something to bridge the gap on the GM's end of things. A newsletter, a more public ban list with discrete and brief reasons. I don't think it's fair for people to deride these requests as attacks on the GM's.

They're requests to understand the people on the other end of the screen and having already spoke at length in the previous thread I have nothing more to say or anything new. I feel that after everything it's just a lot of things being twisted into something it's not. People are allowed to have an opinion, they're allowed to voice their concerns in a healthy manner on a public forum. They shouldn't be derided, or called out as aggressors. And most of all I don't think they should be called antagonists or clowns.

I think that's ugly.

Do with this what you all will, I hope that people will put forth constructive alternatives and build up ideas to bridge this divide. Rather than tearing eachother down. I think we've done that enough.

[Snake]

That's kind of an odd concern. Isn't more the people who don't really want them to be transparent that much if all the applications and what-gives are all anonymous or private at fault then? I kinda always found nonsensical private applications quite silly. I made one myself, but boo hoo surprise surprise, people who know me already know what Luna's app was for, and it was a villain char who's currently being used for nefarious reasons to brush some waves around Sigrogana, for the people who seek or get hooked into it.

Woe is my british-australian friend over there who can't get a break being the only one with a relatively speaking good availability compared to Balthie and Chaos in particular. (pls don't hit me I love you both) At the very most, one of the two there I know they're away because of a much more serious reason than lul vydeogems. Especially after the world had stopped thanks to the bloody COVID and most of the people who are 30+ in the server have to swim thrice as much now, to not die irl.

But c'est la vie. If people think we're in DiRe nEeD oF aDmUnS becOuS Me ApliCeCHOns aInt gEtIN AcEEPtED fAST EnouF or NewPlAyErS Be MemEIng anD rUiNINg mEh iMerSHON, I toss a gentlemanly rebuttal of "Please, for the love of Odin, have some patience. The world does not spin around you nor you're better than the next person in your discord list, especially in a public online videogame with a staff that gains nothing but stress for doing their job. You're not any priority here, and we're all players, regardless of our roles and riches."

Salute. If Dev feels like he'll need more people in, just remember that meme I made on 2020. #KunaiForGM2021

[Autumn]

Anyone who feels that this is calling out GM's or expecting more from them that is reasonable. It comes off as disingenuous and unfair to the people who are politely asking for some change or transparency which I believe is completely fair. No one is calling for the heads of the GM's or stating that they need to be removed or displaced. There is no vitriol or hate being thrown with the explicit desire to hurt.

People want cleaner avenues of communication, they want to feel like they can talk to these people. I only feel truly comfortable speaking to Balthie as a friend, and or Slydria at times. It's nice that people with tenure had the time and place to come up with these people but. A lot of us didn't, and we aren't afforded the opportunities to know them as people the same way others have.

I feel Appo is asking for an olive branch, or just something to bridge the gap on the GM's end of things. A newsletter, a more public ban list with discrete and brief reasons. I don't think it's fair for people to deride these requests as attacks on the GM's. 

They're requests to understand the people on the other end of the screen and having already spoke at length in the previous thread I have nothing more to say or anything new. I feel that after everything it's just a lot of things being twisted into something it's not. People are allowed to have an opinion, they're allowed to voice their concerns in a healthy manner on a public forum. They shouldn't be derided, or called out as aggressors. And most of all I don't think they should be called antagonists or clowns.

I think that's ugly.

Do with this what you all will, I hope that people will put forth constructive alternatives and build up ideas to bridge this divide. Rather than tearing eachother down. I think we've done that enough.

I think that a public ban list or anything that peers into the activities of GMs like that could be a potentially dangerous idea, not a very helpful suggestion but one nontheless is to have bans or mutes on the server show the GM Key which implemented the punishment beside the message, also having it show up in New Chat as its currently bugged to not would be a good idea and show GM Activity in game.

I believe that a necessity would drive GMs to activity, as we've been shown with Slydria and MakeshiftWalrus before, there are GMs who are willing to step up to the plate and serve as an active figure in the community if the need is there.

As for the current GM team, without naming anyone at all we don't actually see a lot from the other GMs publicly, and it would probably serve their own images a bit better if they should step in to approve an application or manage over what they need to manage, looking over the Applications and Guard Chat I can see that the other GMs are perfectly willing to be active, some of them are far more active than what is publicly seen too.

A good way to look at GM activity and whom is trusted has to be the Character Applications, for which ones are responding to those threads and which ones are being PM'd about their characters.

[Balor]

Anyone who feels that this is calling out GM's or expecting more from them that is reasonable. It comes off as disingenuous and unfair to the people who are politely asking for some change or transparency which I believe is completely fair. No one is calling for the heads of the GM's or stating that they need to be removed or displaced. There is no vitriol or hate being thrown with the explicit desire to hurt.

People want cleaner avenues of communication, they want to feel like they can talk to these people. I only feel truly comfortable speaking to Balthie as a friend, and or Slydria at times. It's nice that people with tenure had the time and place to come up with these people but. A lot of us didn't, and we aren't afforded the opportunities to know them as people the same way others have.

I feel Appo is asking for an olive branch, or just something to bridge the gap on the GM's end of things. A newsletter, a more public ban list with discrete and brief reasons. I don't think it's fair for people to deride these requests as attacks on the GM's. 

They're requests to understand the people on the other end of the screen and having already spoke at length in the previous thread I have nothing more to say or anything new. I feel that after everything it's just a lot of things being twisted into something it's not. People are allowed to have an opinion, they're allowed to voice their concerns in a healthy manner on a public forum. They shouldn't be derided, or called out as aggressors. And most of all I don't think they should be called antagonists or clowns.

I think that's ugly.

Do with this what you all will, I hope that people will put forth constructive alternatives and build up ideas to bridge this divide. Rather than tearing eachother down. I think we've done that enough.

I think that a public ban list or anything that peers into the activities of GMs like that could be a potentially dangerous idea, not a very helpful suggestion but one nontheless is to have bans or mutes on the server show the GM Key which implemented the punishment beside the message, also having it show up in New Chat as its currently bugged to not would be a good idea and show GM Activity in game.

I believe that a necessity would drive GMs to activity, as we've been shown with Slydria and MakeshiftWalrus before, there are GMs who are willing to step up to the plate and serve as an active figure in the community if the need is there.

As for the current GM team, without naming anyone at all we don't actually see a lot from the other GMs publicly, and it would probably serve their own images a bit better if they should step in to approve an application or manage over what they need to manage, looking over the Applications and Guard Chat I can see that the other GMs are perfectly willing to be active, some of them are far more active than what is publicly seen too.

A good way to look at GM activity and whom is trusted has to be the Character Applications, for which ones are responding to those threads and which ones are being PM'd about their characters.

I could genuinely like compromise with that. Just anything to be more clear. I don't expect detailed logs, but just anything brief to know, who erred and who banned. Any more transparency would be ideal in my book. Even if it's small.

[Snake]

The only real question is 'por que', imo. What are we even using that info for, as players?

Sounds like a load of none-a-me-business to know. Especially when I'm in SL2 to play the goddamn game instead of playing OOC politician and defender of the voiceless (who doesn't even want protection, too).

[Balor]

The only real question is 'por que', imo. What are we even using that info for, as players?

Sounds like a load of none-a-me-business to know. Especially when I'm in SL2 to play the goddamn game instead of playing OOC politician and defender of the voiceless (who doesn't even want protection, too).

Because often times uncertainty leads to rumor mongering, and toxicity even when it's not anyone's business. You've witnessed it first hand, and have likely been the victim of misconception yourself.