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Shinobi class feedback
#1
Not really much to discuss here. For a damage class, Shinobi is quite lacking in that aspect. For its utility, the duration of things is quite chained down. And for its Mage-Melee hybrid deal, the magic part leaves some room for improvement.

Kenpo skills don't have enough scaling for its damage to keep things interesting with Combination Fighter of Kenpo Master. And Shinobi lacks a basic hitting skill to let it extend Combination Fighter within its own class. (This is only relevant, because Combination Strike exists. There is no synergy between Kenpo Master and Combination Strike.)

Ninjutsu spells have very shortened range and a weird scaling of Elemental ATK that influences said range, which limits you to your stat distribution. And the cooldowns are quite boring to tack on.

Genpo skills don't last long enough to make an impact, being only 2 rounds at worst for its debuffs. And the numbers being very tame too. (10% is the most powerful debuff I've observed, for something that either lasts 1 effective round, or 'until your next round'.)

Furinkazan has numbers of SWA reduced to as little as 50%, god damn. The coolest thing about the class, deals absolutely no damage and once again, its effects last as long as an "until next round" or "2 rounds".

The obvious aside,

I don't want to overwork or complicate my observations about what hopefully a few of everyone have noticed, so I'll try to be brief about what may need to be changed. At least scaling-wise or a small change in its effects, so behold:

Quote:- Slash Moon
It should be changed into a Basic Attack in an AoE around you. As is, this is just a worse and noisy Heaven Kick.

- Habari Tori
+2 Range for Shukuchi. 110-130% SWA.

- Hyakuhachi Rengeki
Can crit by default.
Animation should repeat twice, given it ends before the attack concludes. Just a nitpick.

- Ryusei Ryugeki
120-140% SWA.

- Bone Breaker
Damage should also ignore protection. The LV should be much higher given this only lasts for 1 effective round. So tentatively, LV15/20/25.

- Ryumai Suikan
Spell's cooldown should be 2 rounds. 
The "Recover FP equal to LV when you successfully evade an attack (once per action)." should be LV*2. As is, it barely refunds its own cost.

- Kan Saiganki
The Rock Pillars should last 3 rounds.

- Kokuhaku Kagedan
Spell's cooldown should be 2 rounds.
The Fire ATK should be 110-130%. LV should be 5/10/15.

- Akihono Tobitoro
Lingering (Fire) should be 3 rounds.
Burn should be 4 rounds. (It's a critical hit, so.)
The Fire ATK should be 110-130%. LV should be 5/10/15.
Total Shuriken for bonus effects should be 2/2/2. I don't see anyone running a full Shuriken build for this alone, unless they stop being Tool-tags.

- Arashi Sanseiken
Spell's cooldown should be 2 rounds.
where crit, boss man? coolest skill ever and doesn't crit
The Wind ATK should be 100-130%. LV should be 5/10/15.

- Kagebunshin
Is this really necessary to be a 3 Rank skill when all it does is reduce FP costs?
If so, Sneak and Kage Bunshin duration should both scale from Rank like, 1+Rank LV.
Or get a new effect, that additively increases the chance of Parry happening by 5/10/15% until your next round.

- Usuake
Confusion should be 4 rounds. (It's a critical hit, so.)

- Kiomite Moriomizu
To activate this with the Shinobi class alone, you'd need to Invoke a certain Elemental Art that summons a Nest, which is a lot of momentum investment. By the point you obtain this buff, it'll likely be way too many dodges you missed, and you'd be at low HP by then. And even then! It only lasts 3 rounds at worst. 
The LV could easily be 4/8/10. Base Duration should be 5, and amped by Earth ATK.

- Mahi no Miwaku
At least Ultra Instinct/Tsukuyomi was done right. I got no real feedback about this, as it is one skill that may not need to be changed. It does deserve being 2 rounds for its effect, given how significant that is. THIS, is a great example of what a 2-round duration should be like.

- Kaicho Kaisu
(Rank * 25) + (Rank* 2 * Tiles Absorbed) = Which is a maximum of 147 HP healed. Compared to the current 111 HP. Just slightly below the damage from your average critical hit from a duelist's basic attack.

- Swift Grab
Seems good enough. I don't personally use it, though. 
Wonder if you could make it so this can critically hit (once every 5 rounds) and refund 1M for the purposes of a full Combination Fighter Bone Breaker combo. Not necessary, but would be funny.

- Shinobi Step
Why does this exist when we have Shukuchi, Kagebunshin, Crane Hop and many other better options? Give something more to it.
Like for example, after a Shinobi Step, you activate Riposte until your next round.

- Invoke Elemental Art
Eh, seems fine. Sadly as is, it feels like a mandatory usage of a White Spirit. Wish it was not so, but no way to retroactively fix this problem, and this might also be an unpopular opinion. So leave it the way it is.

- Sensui Shippu
Seems fine too. The duration is short but it's intentional. The only change worth considering is lowering the momentum costs from 3M to either 2M or 1M (but a higher cooldown on this, if so). That way it's more a safety net than a guard-tier investment.

- Furinkazan
Love the aesthetics. But anything that spells 'damage' coming out of its effects is a hillarious tickle on enemies. You do all of the cool handsigns, charge up, and release this powerful myriad of elemental power-- only to deal a crippled 50% of your SWA, and some Elemental ATK that barely compensates it.
Don't forget that damage reduction is not only the %, but also Armor/Magic Armor. The receiving end of damage will always take at least half of any intended damage. So basically, only 25% of your true attack potential will be the damage caused by this, roughly speaking.

- Hand Signs
Pretty cool, no changes needed.

- Assassination Art
Wish it had a better animation, like throwing black shurikens towards the enemies (the ones from Akihono Tobitoro, but black).
The damage's a tad lackluster. If it could be a base of 5% of their Maximum HP + whatever else and its bonuses, it'd probably be a bit more significant for Back Attacks.

- False Target
PEAK. THIS IS PEAK.

- Kenpo Master
PEAK. THIS IS PEAK.

- Concealed Weapon
Eh. Quite insignificant, but it's only 1 point so it's whatever. Would be nice if it was +10 instead.

- Formless Form
PEAK-- Okay, not so much fanfare, but you don't know how significant it is to have -10% FP costs to movement skills has been amounting to letting me dash another time, or not get shafted so harshly by Repeat Action's penalties.

- Gear Mastery
I still don't understand how this works, so I just assume it makes item belt skills and abilities deal more damage.

- Shuriken Wrap
That's a kunai. >:c
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#2
I think the combination fighter change was a mistake and solblader just needed its swa cut
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#3
(07-10-2025, 11:09 PM)Lolzytripd Wrote: I think the combination fighter change was a mistake and solblader just needed its swa cut

The change was a damage gain against high armor though? Only black spirits really saw a damage decrease.
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#4
brother the class has been out for a week
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#5
(07-10-2025, 11:31 PM)Miller Wrote:
(07-10-2025, 11:09 PM)Lolzytripd Wrote: I think the combination fighter change was a mistake and solblader just needed its swa cut

The change was a damage gain against high armor though? Only black spirits really saw a damage decrease.

Eh, from everything I've been hearing shinobi and DH were placed upon whipping block for the sins of solblader.
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#6
(07-11-2025, 04:24 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote:
(07-10-2025, 11:31 PM)Miller Wrote:
(07-10-2025, 11:09 PM)Lolzytripd Wrote: I think the combination fighter change was a mistake and solblader just needed its swa cut

The change was a damage gain against high armor though? Only black spirits really saw a damage decrease.

Eh, from everything I've been hearing shinobi and DH were placed upon whipping block for the sins of solblader.

Shinobi and DH weren't hit at all for the sins of SB unless they were usign black spirits to damage amp.

Kenpo and Reaver just do fuckall damage.
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#7
nevermind then, carry on crazy ninjas
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#8
Honestly my main gripe with Shinobi's current state is that the ranges for the offensive ninjutsu are really low with super awkward dual elemental attack scaling (this applies to the other skills that have durations or effects based on elemental attacks too like Kiomite Miorozu to a lesser extent).

An effective 2 base range targeting in a diamond (since it counts the tile you're standing on as 1 out of 3) that only goes up to 4 makes it feel like the class punishes you for not hitting elemental attack checkpoints and spreading your stats thin rather than rewarding you for it. Kokuhaku Kagedan is probably the worst offender since it needs 50 light attack to get its maximum range which is super awkward to build for in most class combinations. Unless the enemies are super clustered together (within melee range pretty much due to the diamond shape), it's nigh impossible to get off the secondary effect.

I feel like ninjutsu could use a base range increase of one at the very least and maybe cutting the elemental attack threshholds to 20/40 for a total of 6 (5 effective range). Keeping the current range while switching to a 20/30/40/50 progressive range increase for a total of 7 (6 effective range) could also work and feel like you're actually being rewarded for investing elemental attack.

Another thing I have a slight issue with is the cooldowns on ninjutsu, which I assume is to prevent seal spamming to get out effects constantly which is fair but getting certain mark combos is rather restricting as it is. Forest Marks and Mountain Marks are especially glaring due to one of the skills being a 5 round conditional heal and the other a conditional duration buff on a 3 round cooldown. In the latter's case you'll probably struggle or forego even using it at all if you have a build that doesn't easily generate plant tiles or the evasion doesn't provide much for you. Wind Marks are also rough to a lesser extent because you might not want to waste Sensui Shippu and Arashi Sanseiken requires a target and the teleport might put you in an favorable position.

3 rounds is too long for what the individual offensive skills do and I feel like dropping them to 2 is probably better.

I think Furinkazan skills are fine for the most part except for Raging Earth which does next to no damage (30 damage, woohoo!) on top of requiring rock pillars to even take effect. The rock pillars it generates itself are whatever at best and obstructive at worse considering their RNG nature. Also since the tile effects that all the Furikazan skills generate aren't extendable, I wish they had a liiiittle bit more duration to most of them. One or two rounds more on them would be great and wouldn't really be game breaking while making setup for certain effects easier. Activating certain ones can also be hard without Invoke Elemental Art as mentioned earlier due to the cooldowns, range and conditionals of ninjutsu, though that would be remedied somewhat by the suggested cooldown and elemental scaling changes. Being able to use stuff like Kokuhaku Kagedan and Arashi Sanseiken without a target would also be nice as an option to setup if you really need it. Ryumai Suikan also needs to be able to be used on the same tile that you're standing on because sometimes (often times for the build I'm currently using) you do not want to utilize its teleport.

Kenpo skills have been already been addressed as being rather mediocre in damage. Base martial artist skills have lower SWA scalings than soldier ones in regards to using Combination Fighter, with Heaven Kick and Light Tomahawk only reaching 100% at rank 5 on top of fists already having less SWA due to no two-hand. Shinobi also does not have the benefit of Martial Lawbreaker nor Solblader's weapon agnostic skills, so they're even more restricted in what they use their combos with.

On that note, I don't see anything about Slash Moon that even slightly warrants it having a 2 round cooldown much less a cooldown at all considering it's just a tiny AoE of average damage and nothing else. It only being able to be used by Swords, Claws and Shuriken is also kind of weird for a martial artist promo. Why does it need the claw restriction? Just let it use fists. Ryusei Ryugeki requiring 50 scaled guile to inflict knocked down when it's only usable by Polearms and Fists is also an... interesting... choice.
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#9
I think one of the most baffling things about the class to me is the lack of any basic attack in the Kenpo line-up of skills unless you specifically run a conditional hand slot that only works with fists. I'm actually kinda fine for the most part with the damage itself, it's a class with a decent amount of utility; but it's a little weird to me how little... the shinobi class seems to actually want to pair with shurikens? If you run shurikens as a non-karakuri/mech, you're basically locked out of using ninjutsus to do any amount of damage because they're not applicable as casting tools whatsoever and there's no STR main stat shuriken to allow you to use MMA for that instead. Even the flaming shuriken ninjutsu to my knowledge can't even use your own shurikens as casting tool, it's just weird to me.

Balance-wise, I'm perfectly content with the class; it's not bad or as good as its combination fighter counterparts and that's personally fine to me? But there's just a lot of weird decisions all over the place that feel chaotic and like a mish-mash of cool ideas with Furinkazan or Kenpo Master being the only thing linking them together like duct tape.

Honestly though, another thing that bugs me is uh... Why is Kenpo Master main class?
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