[Druby]

I'd rather not turn this into a debate about this subject, so this will really be my last post regarding it, and you're free to have the last word after that, but...

You forget that militaries of old were used to keep law and order in newly conquered territories, and while oppressive, this is certainly a form of law keeping. Another thing to keep in mind is that, aside from like the Romans and a few other empires, most ancient militaries weren't proper standing militaries, and generally drew on drafts, local militias, and whatever retinues came with the nobility and knights for their armies due to the fact that they just didn't have the resources for them, and thus come from the same pool of people that manned the town watch or city guards.

I will admit, SL2 as a setting is a bit different from standard medieval society, seeing as magic and other advancements exist, but at the same time, most of the nations in SL2 are nation-states rather than full blown empires with a massive pool of resources to draw upon for something like a standing military let alone the unified government, such as Karaten and Chaturanga. Aside from the Empire, Alstalsia is really the only other nation to "own" their entire continent, and even then most of it is uninhabitable due to basically being fantasy-Australia. Arguably, out of every single nation, only the Empire would have the resources required to own a real standing army, and if the other nations have nothing of the sort that would necessitate such a dedication of resources, well... It's feasible the Empire wouldn't care to devote that to it. You could argue that it's more of a case of available resources as a reason for why guards and militaries are one and the same in the setting.

As for your comment on the "kinds of people" who would join... I mean, in absence of a local police force, anyone looking to serve their community would likely just join the alternative, that being local militias, or the army... Since the army is the police. It's not like all those people who want to protect their communities just decide to not because there is no separation of power between police and military, they'll likely just do it anyways if they're really patriots of that sort. It's not like they'd just treat their own countrymen brutally or something, and pillage and rape the cities they're there to guard. I mean, they generally come from these places. These are their homes. Just because you put on a soldier's uniform, doesn't suddenly turn you into a violent barbarian that would brutalize your neighbors and your family.

[Lolzytripd]

There were no militaries like our current day volunteer forces it was either drafted militia's or sellswords, rome's legions were some of the most profit hungry soldiers in history, Rome could almost never afford to pay their legions at the outset, promising land and spoils 'after' their service and often times when they failed to pay the legion would swear loyalty to a different member of the roman political elite and back them in a coup or rebellion.

I just don't think that in any setting, that realistically the experience of being a military force, the rigors of warfare, would lead to a productive member of a homeland police force, note specifically homeland, militaries make excellent occupational forces if you don't exactly care about the people they are occupying.

Again specifically the duties of guards should be left to guards, whether they be the sheriff and his posse appointed by a town mayor, the constable in the city, the detective by the city gate, that spooky karaten exorcist club or the holy order of the church.



I would like Sl2 to have both Guards, special organizations that blur the line between paramilitary and police, and dedicated armies. I however would prefer law enforcement left to the first two and wars be left to the latter, with the second only being used as specialists.

[Sarah54321]

I feel like you're taking it too realistically for a world that's a Fantasy that can't exactly be pinned down easily. That, and also you have to remember that wars don't really Happen in SL2, because world-changing events like that would require Dev's permission and a lot of GM Approval. In the past the closest we had to a war was back in Sawrock's hayday when he attacked Cellsvich.

We have no wars in SL2, so this is basically just a guard force except called differently.

[Blissey]

There were no militaries like our current day volunteer forces it was either drafted militia's or sellswords, rome's legions were some of the most profit hungry soldiers in history, Rome could almost never afford to pay their legions at the outset, promising land and spoils 'after' their service and often times when they failed to pay the legion would swear loyalty to a different member of the roman political elite and back them in a coup or rebellion.

I just don't think that in any setting, that realistically the experience of being a military force, the rigors of warfare, would lead to a productive member of a homeland police force, note specifically homeland, militaries make excellent occupational forces if you don't exactly care about the people they are occupying.

Again specifically the duties of guards should be left to guards, whether they be the sheriff and his posse appointed by a town mayor, the constable in the city, the detective by the city gate, that spooky karaten exorcist club or the holy order of the church.



I would like Sl2 to have both Guards, special organizations that blur the line between paramilitary and police, and dedicated armies. I however would prefer law enforcement left to the first two and wars be left to the latter, with the second only being used as specialists.

As salient as your point is when it comes to the separation between military and police, I don't think this will hold well in SL2 based on player population alone. Not because the players would be irresponsible, but because we just don't have the consistent base -- and even with 80 players at peak (if half of them aren't alts), not every player will want to make a character in authority.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to complicate it, even if certain things won't make sense.

[Lolzytripd]

That's acceptable I suppose, though I wish it wasn't being presented as just the logical progression from guards, I would like border skirmishes, tense rivalries and possibly even these factions being the antagonists themselves in some scenarios.

As an example lets say that a member of the church believes a notable vampire/lich they've been looking for (not necessarily a player but a plot element for conflict) is hiding in altlasia and they send a strike force into the foreign land without warning so the target doesn't have time to react, but this creates political turmoil and minor conflict with the altlasian houses as they don't fully understand the mercalan religion and worry that these crusaders may instead be after some of their own, possibly darker secrets or relics.

[Aqua]

That's acceptable I suppose, though I wish it wasn't being presented as just the logical progression from guards, I would like border skirmishes, tense rivalries and possibly even these factions being the antagonists themselves in some scenarios.

As an example lets say that a member of the church believes a notable vampire/lich they've been looking for (not necessarily a player but a plot element for conflict) is hiding in altlasia and they send a strike force into the foreign land without warning so the target doesn't have time to react, but this creates political turmoil and minor conflict with the altlasian houses as they don't fully understand the mercalan religion and worry that these crusaders may instead be after some of their own, possibly darker secrets or relics.

In that Hypothetical situation, which is assumed is hypothetical, obviously, the safe bet would be to assume the Commander of the Church Knights forewarns the Alstalsian Commander of such, without forewarning I find it hard to believe they'll be able to act on such if it will cause political turmoil and minor conflict with the Alstalsian house. Being informed of actions on their soil will prevent such I feel.

As for the being presented as a logical progression, I don't really think this is a 'Progression' per se but an entire overhaul to how the guards are entire, as implied/stated by Chaos in the original post. It's basically what, and I quote what Sarah said above " this is basically just a guard force except called differently."

People have expressed that they want to be more involved but have to go through certain doors to get there, this change opens up those opportunities and possibilities for people who have an interest in doing so which exactly what we as the guard have been trying to do for a long while, at least from what I can tell.

[Sawrock]

THIS IS CHRISTMAS EXCEPT I'M GOING TO JAIL

YES
YEEEEEEEEESSSS

TIME TO BRING MY VILLAINS OUT BAYBEE GONNA FIGHT AN ENTIRE ARMY

[Autumn]

For up until now, the Guards of Sigrogana have functionally been their primary military when it comes to the homefront anyways, when it comes to threats such as Black Falcon or anything similar (Necromancer/Vampire hunters/Pieter/Cellsvich Attack etc.) we have always been there in the public eye to make sure that at the very least we hold a presence representing the Empire and its will, for what limitations we have that don't just allow 100s of Red and Greens to be storming the Monster of the Week villain.

I believe currently that perhaps ranking names could be changed, and as Dragonruby has brought up:

First of all, the rank structure is extremely abridged. I can understand why, after all things aren't going to be a real military, we're just RPing and all, however in terms of "enlisted" rank structure, you basically just have "soldier" and that's it, nothing else. I'd recommend throwing in at least like a Sergeant rank above just Soldier (and possibly renaming Soldier to something like Private but that's just me being nitpicky to be honest).

There is no rank above soldier that is much less humble than a Lieutenant, so adding one just above soldier is not a bad idea either, given the progression system will be gradual, it'll be jarring for certain to jump from Soldier to Lieutenant cause you stood out a little.

[Lolzytripd]

That's acceptable I suppose, though I wish it wasn't being presented as just the logical progression from guards, I would like border skirmishes, tense rivalries and possibly even these factions being the antagonists themselves in some scenarios.

As an example lets say that a member of the church believes a notable vampire/lich they've been looking for (not necessarily a player but a plot element for conflict) is hiding in altlasia and they send a strike force into the foreign land without warning so the target doesn't have time to react, but this creates political turmoil and minor conflict with the altlasian houses as they don't fully understand the mercalan religion and worry that these crusaders may instead be after some of their own, possibly darker secrets or relics.

In that Hypothetical situation, which is assumed is hypothetical, obviously, the safe bet would be to assume the Commander of the Church Knights forewarns the Alstalsian Commander of such, without forewarning I find it hard to believe they'll be able to act on such if it will cause political turmoil and minor conflict with the Alstalsian house. Being informed of actions on their soil will prevent such I feel.

As for the being presented as a logical progression, I don't really think this is a 'Progression' per se but an entire overhaul to how the guards are entire, as implied/stated by Chaos in the original post. It's basically what, and I quote what Sarah said above " this is basically just a guard force except called differently."

People have expressed that they want to be more involved but have to go through certain doors to get there, this change opens up those opportunities and possibilities for people who have an interest in doing so which exactly what we as the guard have been trying to do for a long while, at least from what I can tell.

And in that scenario a planted member in the alstalsian courts warns their master and the church once more fails to capture their wanted target. I guess the united states never killed bin laden, they had to wait a month or two to hear back from the officials of Pakistan for permission to perform the strike...and then he wasn't there since someone warned him.

Conflict is good for the plot, its good for story, conflict doesn't have to be herp derp I am good boy church knight I ams go to horny people land and kill lich. It can be more nuanced where neither side is 100% in the wrong and both groups can learn and grow from the tense interaction. You completely skipped the point, the conflict was never really about the lich, the conflict was always about the political tension being heightened from them acting in a rash manner.

Its not even unheard of in the lore Bright Vajistra goes to Oniga without informing anyone to hunt a target, under the guise of a traveler.

[Chaos]

A quick update:
-Clarified that applications will receive opinions from the leader(s) of whatever branch they're applying for.
-Added a bit to the Military Document in response to Kameron8's question. I'll also explain that down below.

That being said, here's a quick flurry of responses:

@Turadis
1. This 'capability' is meant to be shown in RP, rather than mechanically. A small buff given to Church Knight characters on duty is possible later on.

2. The Black Wind can pass for a Church Knight, assuming they're in heavy armor when using it. Shapeshifting is questionable, but might work, unless you're being reckless with it. Blood Magic probably isn't something you want to do. Spellthief's skills heavily depend on how you use them, but in general, actively 'stealing' spells is going to be considered a no-no.


@Kameron8
The capture rule is strictly for the military side. The non-military side should follow the standard combat rules for permissions in case of victory. That being said, this is largely meant to give the military side the proper permission to arrest someone on defeat; they aren't supposed to use these rules to avoid retaliation in case of loss. If any disagreement occurs, it's best to pause the scene and grab a GM to settle things.


@Druby
The ranks/corps are set to provide a sense of scale, with the idea that NPCs are inevitably going to be involved, and there's some brevity to the number of ranks to prevent unnecessary bloat, which is the main reason that 'enlisted' ranks basically consist of soldier and maybe lieutenant.

I'm open to any suggestions regarding ranks, as long as they don't require making up a ton of ranks for the sake of separating officers and non-officers.


@Lolzytripd
Whatever moral/ethical argument there might be, combining 'guards' into 'military' is ultimately a huge headache saver at the end of the day, and I'm sure some people would appreciate not having to create a guard AND a military character just to get involved in the defense (or invasion) of whatever nation.



On a more general note, 'wars don't really happen' is something that, in all likelihood, can very well change as things progress, especially with military roles coming up, and whatever roles may lay beyond that (primarily political roles, but that's for another topic).