[Kyratio]

While I appreciate posting things for supposed clarity, the logs are edited. For anyone who isn't aware, there are things absolutely cut out of the posted log of the hidden channel.

If the attempt was to self-exonerate, the end result is the opposite. It just makes the GMs look like beyond-saints, unnatural and inhuman creatures of patience that is wildly unwarranted.

If someone is willing to quit because they didn't get their way, no matter how bizarre or impossible the thing they wanted is, they likely weren't a good fit for SL2 to start with. Characters die, plot lines are scuffed, and people get screwed over because of things beyond their control. That's on the Great Six, no less, where things are far, far more malleable and 'open' and far easier to retcon and change. Korvara is always IC, and IC actions have consequences. A lot of people are willing to accept that things they do that make RP sense will sometimes bite them in the ass. Sometimes enough to ruin playing the character, or get them killed. If you aren't... You shouldn't try to make sweeping, far-reaching, massive action.

Let alone when your point of view is... 'I'll always win, and I'll always get my way, and anything that says otherwise is people out to get me'.

'I'll quit' becomes a pointless bit of a threat when, even after getting a beyond-unrealistic amount of enforced leniency, you quit anyway.

I only hope the rest of the players who were involved in Fairview can move on and continue playing, without being used as emotional manipulation material. That level of disrespect is unfathomable.

I literally just copied and pasted the exact logs of everything directly from the hidden channel though? I'm a bit confused. And no, I've had more than enough experiences with this community to realize what kind of responses I'd get. This was, as stated, just me giving info to everyone. 

If you really think anything was left out, please provide a proper log or screenshot of what was left out to prove so, and I'll literally ctrl+f what you provide and screenshot the hidden channel myself to prove if it was there or not.

I didn't have any attention to this thread all that much after the response from Pandos until I was informed there was a posting of the logs from the conflict chat. When I went through it, I found things were missing from the logs around the 16th and 17th, primarily absolutely nothing from the 16th, and a large chunk cut out from the 17th.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1...nknown.png

So for clarity's sake to anyone desiring the missing section of the log beyond what little occurred on the 16th, and for you, yourself, Kyratio, here is the screenshots you asked for.

Beyond this clarity and the logs, I don't have much more to say on this thread that all the others speaking here haven't already said; the logs so the GMs and Dev gave you all plenty of leeway up until the end when you became unmoving on any of the matters being brought to face, and honestly, I applaud their patience, because I'm almost certain I wouldn't of had it in their position.

I also have respect for how the other players involved in this approached matters, seemingly as calmly as they could up until the end, and a few other sections where their patience seemed to simply be stretched thin, but even though the players didn't need to be fair either, they offered the same olive branch a few times from how the logs read.

Huh... Honestly, thank you. The copying and pasting of all that was pretty frustrating as once I copied too much it'd just clip off and not copy anything after a certain point so I guess I accidentally went over that one part after going into the logs and finding that genuinely wasn't in there. That's very much something I would've wanted in there! 

I would've appreciated not being made to seem like I did it on purpose, but! Regardless, thank you for sharing this honestly. I hope there wasn't any others that I overlooked. And while I very much know that a group, specifically the group that has been responding to this thread specifically has a certain way of seeing things, I also know there are many who don't agree with it, which is the main reason I posted all this, for them to be able to make their own conclusions. Whether or not they voice their opinion doesn't really matter. 

I admit I was kind of offended because you made it sound like I did it on purpose, but since I literally did accidentally leave a part out, I can't blame you.

Additionally: I'll be checking to see if anything else might've been left out, not going to put too much time on it, but just to make certain. I'll update it here with pictures if so.

Update for some more things left out! Both before and after what Tana included.
(Before)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
(After)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png

[Lolzytripd]

I believe its fair to know your accusers, I saw ashvath and Yuri exit fairview via the western exit towards the goblin cave, I only brought it up since the pair did not stop to say anything in looc.

I assumed it was simply to do something oocly, didn't accuse them of IC shenanigans, fairview doesn't have a bank but I'd consider them to IC use the storehouse in the town, Or it could have been an inn run, or heck it could have been something like void veil that needs to be reset in pve, which is also fine, or it could have been spirits swapping from a grind set to a non grind set.

Either way I was personally fine with any of that, I let several other members of fairview who were "sparring" on a later day run off to nemalyth crystals/wasgow's inn for heals oocly.

[Kyratio]

I believe its fair to know your accusers,  I saw ashvath and Yuri exit fairview via the western exit towards the goblin cave, I only brought it up since the pair did not stop to say anything in looc.

I assumed it was simply to do something oocly, didn't accuse them of IC shenanigans, fairview doesn't have a bank but I'd consider them to IC use the storehouse in the town,  Or it could have been an inn run, or heck it could have been something like void veil that needs to be reset in pve, which is also fine, or it could have been spirits swapping from a grind set to a non grind set.

Either way I was personally fine with any of that, I let several other members of fairview who were "sparring" on a later day run off to nemalyth crystals/wasgow's inn for heals oocly.

On this matter, it's genuinely just I don't know who you saw but it wasn't me or Ash. We hadn't logged in since the first day of the raid and we logged in right after we were accused to prove it, I probably still have the screenshots where it shows we were offline for however many in-game hours taken that very day somewhere. 

I'm not sure why it was made such a big deal of regardless as even if we had, like you said, it would've been entirely for OOC reasons as any attempts at some sort of IC escape would've literally just gotten us banned and made well, no sense whatsoever? But yeah, we had no reason to leave, we had no reason to even get on the game. It's kind of appalling how big of a deal people make out of things like this when there literally wasn't even any proof aside from someone saying they saw it. 

I personally wouldn't have even cared so much about it if someone I knew wasn't being caught up in the middle of the drama that followed, and then later finding out Dev with no evidence, no reason for us to even do that, no proof when he checked our save files and genuinely no reason for him to believe it aside from "I have no reason to believe why someone would lie about that." Well... That kind of says something to me! 

Furthermore, just to state my opinion since so many other people have, this is an RP game. A place for people to play out fantasies, characters or stories that they build upon, thought of, or just kind of play out on the fly. I understand many people's stories conflict, and many people's stories are... Well, on the more intense and disruptive side of things. Some people might even play for some sort of power high. The reason I say this is at every turn, every conflict, every decision that was made in Fairview was literally just to try and encourage fun, be it antagonistic, or be it just reactions.

This is not me stating facts, just our opinions and thoughts on everything that went down, I understand that many may disagree, but I again, hope that some people will at least be able to look past the loud voices or those who refuse to see it any other way.

When we first made Fairview, our whole idea was to make a place that was accepting of everyone, a place that promoted lots of different types of RP. An antag could come in and attack us on the spot without worry of being instantly killed by the guards, people who were fleeing from guards in other towns could come and try to convince us to allow them to take refuge, so they wouldn't just have to just forever afk their character during the duration of time that people are out to get them while awaiting a resolution. People could just casually come and go as they pleased as those who properly lived there continued to build and work towards a village that would eventually become a trade town of sorts. We were trying to sort out all of our professions and setup a shop, yadda yadda.

But, then the conflict with Beggar's Hole and Geladyne started and we found ourselves involved because a newer member of Fairview found themselves jailed, being held for a week OOCly (Maybe more? Don't quote me.) and, stated to have been given only two options. Death, or character death by mind control. This not only felt unfair on an OOC level, but on an IC level, was just ridiculous. It was Geladyne, and at the time Geladyne was seemingly supposed to be the big bad though, so... OOCly, none of us really tried to argue with it. After all, the first Premier made quite a showing for Geladyne to start off. So, we ICly spent about 4 days, maybe a week at most, preparing a little event to break Mana out. We based our plan around the same plan Tana and their group so nicely pulled off but with more included. We didn't know about the attack on Beggar's Hole ICly or OOCly by the time the plans had been made, it was genuinely just a coincidence. We actually wanted to do it sooner, but time restrictions! 

After that, it felt like a lot of people just oocly decided that Fairview was a lot like Beggar's Hole and some sort of antagonistic faction. And, honestly... From that point on with the ban of Henrik, with the leaving of so many various important people, with the intense amount of focus everyone put on us, we genuinely couldn't do much at all in regards to our plans. Yes, our actions should have consequences, but I'd like to remind everyone that we did have consequences. We were unable to continue the story we were trying to make, we weren't even able to really go out much and RP because everyone was quite literally out to get someone who was supposedly going to be released anyway, and someone who literally wasn't even a part of the group who broke Mana out because... Well, in my opinion, a community issue.

Soon enough, there was a very obvious attack made on Fairview on a... Well, mental level. People were focusing out specific people because of OOC knowledge they had about them. People were trying to trick others, manipulate them, and honestly, they were successful because these people on an IC and OOC level trusted them. It's really sad that people went so far as to break a trust like that simply to push a narrative to go after someone because of their OOC feelings about them.

Eventually, it came down to there was one person that everyone hated in Fairview all because of OOC drama, and even when they were given IC consequences again, and again, and again, a specific group continued to push harder and harder, very clearly trying to remove this person from being able to play the game. This why I state that there was a lot of OOC involved with the Fairview situation. It's not about what all happened ICly, it's about an inherent problem with a specific part of this community. 

Rather than move on and play a character, many people take OOC grudges and force it into their IC. They hate a character because of who it's played by. They suddenly do something drastic and make a situation much bigger because of who a character is played by. I've literally seen it happen the moment some of these people realize certain characters are this person, and it's really, sad. 

Everyone is going to be incompatible with certain people, everyone is going to hurt other people be it on accident, or on purpose. Everyone will inevitably make someone else angry. You can be the kindest person in the world, and someone will resent that. You can be the angriest person in the world, and someone will respect that. The problems comes when people aren't willing to forgive, or even give someone a chance to be forgiven, or to apologize. The problem comes when people split off into small groups and spread rumors, or opinions that suddenly turn into facts amongst a little group, which then becomes more rumors. The problem is when people get angry about genuine things people have done, and then brood over it rather than trying to understand why someone did something. Of course, if you hate someone, yeah. Most people aren't going to try to understand. But everyone goes through terrible times in their life, everyone does things they'll regret sometimes. That doesn't make them unredeemable. That doesn't mean they need to be treated like some sort of BBEG that needs to be "shown humility" or "put in their place." 

Feel free to pick and tear apart specific places of all this to try and make me look bad, or to try and nullify my point here, but I feel like I've explained enough to make my point pretty obvious here. This isn't just an SL2 problem, I've seen it happen to others, even outside of the Byond community. It's just something that needs to be realized, and actually resolved. But, most of the time people aren't willing to ever meet halfway for things like this. 

Best of luck to everyone in the SL2 community! I hope Korvara becomes whatever Dev actually wants it to be and can be successful. I hope everyone can aim towards making RP more fun for everyone, and not fall into the same bad tendencies as Eternia, or DU, or RPT, or all the other heavily conflict focused RP games on Byond out there. Sigro was something special in that it avoided that. Korvara is the new Sigro, and it seems to have removed that special part from itself and is leaning into the same exact thing all the others have done. Conflict isn't bad. But nothing but conflict just leads to burn out.

[Anhita]

But, then the conflict with Beggar's Hole and Geladyne started and we found ourselves involved because a newer member of Fairview found themselves jailed, being held for a week OOCly (Maybe more? Don't quote me.) and, stated to have been given only two options. Death, or character death by mind control. This not only felt unfair on an OOC level, but on an IC level, was just ridiculous. It was Geladyne, and at the time Geladyne was seemingly supposed to be the big bad though, so... OOCly, none of us really tried to argue with it. After all, the first Premier made quite a showing for Geladyne to start off. So, we ICly spent about 4 days, maybe a week at most, preparing a little event to break Mana out. We based our plan around the same plan Tana and their group so nicely pulled off but with more included. We didn't know about the attack on Beggar's Hole ICly or OOCly by the time the plans had been made, it was genuinely just a coincidence. We actually wanted to do it sooner, but time restrictions! 

I cant be assed to go check months-long logfiles in Geladyne castle chat, nor go through this entire wall of text, but mind control was a suggestion brought to ME, and I veto'd it on the basis of how easily abused something like that can be.

Character death was on the table - but with political meneuvering, It was taken off - With a deal made with Fairview to effectively hold the person in question so long as Fairview does not intervene in the conflict with Beggar's Hole - and Geladyne planned to return the individual in question once the conflict was resolved.

After that, it felt like a lot of people just oocly decided that Fairview was a lot like Beggar's Hole and some sort of antagonistic faction.

After this deal was brokered, The Breakout occured, and after that - It was quite difficult to not look at Fairview as an antagonistic force to Geladyne. The Premier's opinion on Fairview changed for the negative, Which only seemed to spiral with the tribunal. Even then, I effectively played with kids gloves, only letting Mother's character off with exile considering the crimes levied against them. From that point I had absolutely no horses in the race outside of playing the leader of Geladyne watching the events from a distance and playing a borderline psychotic Shaitan with an interest in the conflict.

  and someone who literally wasn't even a part of the group who broke Mana out because... Well, in my opinion, a community issue.

Can you please clarify what you mean by this?

[Dezark]

Alright so this has gone from a genuine topic and thing to just a purpose of trying to show why group A and B are absolute garbage and should feel bad for what happened cause of actions that eventually followed and were taken a certain way by group C..

"After that, it felt like a lot of people just oocly decided that Fairview was a lot like Beggar's Hole and some sort of antagonistic faction. And, honestly... From that point on with the ban of Henrik, with the leaving of so many various important people, with the intense amount of focus everyone put on us, we genuinely couldn't do much at all in regards to our plans. Yes, our actions should have consequences, but I'd like to remind everyone that we did have consequences."

There wasn't a intense amount of focus put on you, let me make this abundently clear, I was kept up to date on the side even during my time of stress and where I couldn't be around physically to hear every plan go down, be it cause of time zones, my current choice to step away from SL2 for a day or otherwise, given the amassed mess that followed it.. but there wasn't. There was a conversation with Roland ICly which was following the regard of one of the requirements we we're told by Geladyne at the time, which was they wanted Ashvath to be handed over for a <u>trial</u>, and I ask you keep that word in mind now.. when it was brought up ICly to them asking for them to help so that we could get Ashvath there and back without issue, they asked us to confirm & make sure on that; and the response given was that we would.

Now whatever followed this decision to confirm Ashvath's safety after the trial that turned instead to "uuuuoooggghh you made them quit cause your all ----- (fill in the blank with your own string of words here)" wasn't done by us, cause I've spoken with the related parties on that leading up to hearing someone stepped away from SL2. I wasn't going to pry on that player either for it, I asked them if things we're alright; got a response that they were done with sl2 and stepping away, and gave them a pat emoji and told them to stay strong and take the time they needed.

After they left Meiaquar however, was when I was informed word was sent for my Enforcer at the time, which somehow turned into a ton of people showing up mind you like it was a event fight at the arena or city at the G6, because Ashvath had decided she was going to come by and begin questioning people and accusing others on things. Nonsense insues, and several hours later of what was suppose to be (for what I knew at the time) a hour or two scene at most, became 7; and right after it finished is when Fairview decided to respond by coming in and demanding Ashvath be released.. not before to ask or even request she be let go after, just a immediate "let them go or else." response (Thank you to Dyst on that who helped with some matters beforehand on clearing that up.. into telling them to not.)

This ended up into of course the whole campfire song outside of Meiaquar.. Ashvath trial eventually happened and despite EVERYONE word and claim (even after mind you) that "the Donna going to execute her we have to kill the evil Donna!" they weren't, instead they were exiled from Geladyne despite everything, came home fine and dandy (minus whatever forced injuries that were attempted if any, after twice before..) and moved on from that. It was the following from there that came to be with Ashvath getting exiled; that this proclaimed focus seems to be stemming at least in my eyes.

This wasn't any regard of OOC drama mind you, Ashvath had her own records in Meiaquar, Yuri did as well even if smaller in return. It was just left on that regard though when things followed with Ashvath, we decided instead of dealing with it at the time; that a exile was put out.. and a meeting followed it afterwards. We spoke on different things, began the start and due to TCBlade health at the time, we stopped it until he was no longer available because the entire meeting was wanted to be pushed for by Blade on that. Given what followed after (be it seen as justified or not) with blade's attempted action toward the original lore document and his quitting, no meeting was called to follow, or asked for.

Now this is where I gotta make my voice known on my own issue of things personally.. because a meeting could of been called for again, even if at the time I was unavailable; after we got Satoshi in his position one of the first things honestly should of been to do so, but rather instead; you chose to come into Meiaquar with someone who (the notice of exile was never taken down or given notice of being null in response on the noticeboard by Blade, or Satoshi on that in either matters.) claiming it wasn't existent; and proceeded to get angry with two others because they both..

1. Enforced the exile (even if they tried to take a bribe infront of a cabinet member like a idiot)
2. Made it clear that as a representative in the cabinet, you did not have the power to tell or order the guards.

... and decided instead, you were going to say "well if your gonna do this, than I guess I'll do the same!" instead of; again, asking or calling for a meeting personally. And I know the reason given for not wanting to call one was due to my own (Desiree here hi) personal stress at the time, and all and all? Thank you for considering me on all of this; but if shit is more important to get addressed especially in this regard, not having the emotionally lacking lizard there won't cause any problems. This entire fiasco that erupted from the Fairview situation, after dealing with a constant back to back of things, is what made my stress worse. A meeting to try and appeal things proper would of been fine.

"Eventually, it came down to there was one person that everyone hated in Fairview all because of OOC drama, and even when they were given IC consequences again, and again, and again, a specific group continued to push harder and harder, very clearly trying to remove this person from being able to play the game. This why I state that there was a lot of OOC involved with the Fairview situation. It's not about what all happened ICly, it's about an inherent problem with a specific part of this community. "

Going to be the one the one to maybe sound like a broken record here.. but there was nothing fueling this person because of OOC drama; I'm not sure where that came from, let alone what the number of IC consequences that followed it were unless your counting the matter of the reasons Ashvath was jailed ICly, which followed their own consquences ICly. Personally speaking, there was nothing against mother in a OOC aspect that made us look at them and go "oh yeah, that the one; let's give them a ton of issues and punish them cause heehoo we don't like them oocly!" despite what being made to pass here.

If anything at this point is going to fuel people reason to not be content with them OOCly, it taking private logs in a chat made to discuss matters, and showing how they responded, both from racial remarks that were attempted to be argued over a person Nationality as not understanding what they're saying (Given the large diverse community we have here? I'd say it otherwise.) followed by revealing them actively attempting to blackmail someone and than trying to justify it (the blackmailer for this, not you specifically..) I'd just like to make what I said before, more clear.

I get you weren't happy with what happened, but when your IC actions have IC consquences, you roll with the punches; and while I get your unhappy that Lolzy THOUGHT they saw you guys leave at the time and were unable to confirm (shit happens, you guys proved it was wrong; so it worked out.) it was shown that wasn't the case, and things were fine from there. No one went to drag you out of your rooms or anything like that, people sparred and made jokes to pass the time inbetween the siege even, and ultimately you guys were given at the request all around from Fairview community who was willing to speak and discuss it with GMs, Dev and those selected from Meiaquar's side; to just give you exile, no one got executed despite the claims, everyone who fought or stood with Fairview was given a pass and even shelter if they seeked it and after it all finished they even got told "you can stay here if you want, just expect someone new to run it soon." and people chose to do what they wanted from that point.

"Best of luck to everyone in the SL2 community! I hope Korvara becomes whatever Dev actually wants it to be and can be successful. I hope everyone can aim towards making RP more fun for everyone, and not fall into the same bad tendencies as Eternia, or DU, or RPT, or all the other heavily conflict focused RP games on Byond out there. Sigro was something special in that it avoided that. Korvara is the new Sigro, and it seems to have removed that special part from itself and is leaning into the same exact thing all the others have done. Conflict isn't bad. But nothing but conflict just leads to burn out."

So i've two pieces to give to this.. firstly, I too hope Korvara turns out as Dev is trusting the community to make it, he just handed us a brand new slate of stuff from SL2 and said it our turn to make things like we're a bunch of toddlers being given crayons and Dev that parent watching us cram them up our nose as he internally screams louder every second.. but I have to say (and i understand wanting to do so) what someone finds fun out of an RP, is going to highly depend on each person differently. Some like the conflict side of SL2 where they can duke it out with each other or even take on giant monsters and big bad's ascending to power like our Black Falcon friends, and others enjoy the parties and slice of life aspect that came with things..

That said?.. No matter what style you like or want, SL2 as a whole has always been a RP heavy game, everything that happens, is decided or otherwise; is done through RP. Some people use it to decide "I got the bigger build so i'm winning this!" and stick to the meta stuff and know all the great things and others don't, but living up to the decision that lead to it is the big major thing. It never dodged being a RP heavy game, as it always encouraged it. It just now in Korvara; dev can make it more clear how he wanted people to stick to staying IC and not going about grinding every which way across this new place and actively take it in.

In the end, Fairview had it start as something along the lines of slice of life and could of worked and talked with the leaders respectively so things didn't come to this toward the end of it all, and instead (and i'll quote on this.) "Who side are you going to take? Your brother's or that womans? If she speaks I'll decide for you." and the IC decision that was influenced by your own heavily set RP, was "we're taking this land from you, now please leave." and you got the response of consquences that came from it.


That all said, and I'll go with what I've said before.. I do hope you and whomever else decides to take a break from SL2 either temporarily or permanently, can do so without having any heavy weight of anger, or salt following it. It wasn't the outcome that was wanted or enjoyed, but we take the hands we get dealt on that. Personally speaking despite having to go through the weeks of drama that lead into the matter of the whole thing?.. I got nothing against anyone on either side for it, Fairview responded how they saw fit in the end, and Meiaquar did the same through their own preparations. At the end of the day, it just something that happened in a game and that's fine. Cause we'll all butt heads occasionally and get angry and snippy at one another cause we're human and that just what happens. We can't control our emotions and say no to specific ones, just accept what we said and did. Hope y'all stay in contact with friends and folk atleast, if ya ever need someone to just rant too my DMs are typically always open as well on that.

[Poruku]

Damn that's a lotta words

I think we need rules for war and more communication. Clear possible outcomes and conditions, so that both sides are on the same page. The fear of meta and hiding of information only leads to rumors spreading, confusion, and people coming to their own assumptions. At some point we have to make sacrifices somewhere to make this game's large scale conflicts healthy, and the element of surprise might be one

[FaeLenx]

People who complain about a lack of communication are usually the last to actually open up a DM with someone to start a discussion. I've never had trouble having a conversation with someone when it was needed to clarify something or plan something I had in mind, but I've only received a DM from someone to clarify or plan IC interactions a few times. I have, however, seen a lot of people complain about never being asked or communicated with when they also have the ability to open up DMs at any time.

Also, rules for war are incredibly divisive. We either all agree that it's tallied up like a sportsball game and we get some wacky results, or we all have to agree that GMs are going to have a huge say in this and the winners who didn't win as much as they wanted or the losers who lost more than they'd like don't really have any right to complain.

Ideally, war becomes a way for people to run events, tell a story, and create and interesting conflict. There are a few tools that we could get that might help with this, but nothing stops us from doing it already besides the fact that conflict is heavily sporadic IC and the four largest powers have a lot of reason to keep the status quo and only take targets in the form of the 'little guy.'

[Poruku]

I'm someone who always communicates when it comes to conflict, but I think we need guidelines on communication for organizing a conflict. What needs to be said, what the expectations are, etc. Make it something we don't just run blindly into.

And yes, rules for war are divisive. That's why we need them, because even worse is having disagreements and no rules