[Rendar]

If Non-Gui weapons lost half of their crit damage mod from gui. It'd actually be a Nice Little Thing. STR weapons get +CRIT. Gui weapons Actually Get To Hit You Hard with said crit.

But also.

Axes are still fucking bullshit with their weapon talent. Holy hell.

[Balor]

The numbers presented here seem incredibly hyperbolic and exaggerated. I have no doubts that people can hit you with high hit builds, and that guile applies to that however I've witnessed many fights where people are equally walled out by evade.

Perhaps one should account not for the strength of evade or the strength of hit but rather that both can be true and this is just the overall rock and scissors nature of SL2's balance philosophies.

I won't argue that guile is not an effective stat, but has since GR2's introduction been gutted twice via reduction on circumstances where the hit bonus applies which nerfed range guile builds like Gunners and Bow users.

Then farshot penalty reduction nerfs.

Also reducing non-gui weapons crit damage mods would only serve to gut spears and swords and remove build diversity more and encourage axe as the only melee crit build choice besides daggers given the bonuses it gets.

I don't think as well that Celerity should be giving people DR as I feel evade as it stands performs perfectly fine in 70% of scenarios and is only unsatisfactory because of how poignant the situations where it fails stand out. We've also seen the slow evolution of evade ignores being shifted to greater accuracy slowly but surely. So I do not feel we need to buff celerity.

I will not say I have any great solutions to a problem that lends itself to extreme cases such as hit and evade, but I also feel that many of the solutions presented at the moment would only further aggravate the problem and further age out various weapons and such from the build pool.

[Mewni]

People really should stop having kneejerk reactions to losing is my take.

[Lolzytripd]

If Non-Gui weapons lost half of their crit damage mod from gui. It'd actually be a Nice Little Thing. STR weapons get +CRIT. Gui weapons Actually Get To Hit You Hard with said crit.

But also.

Axes are still fucking bullshit with their weapon talent. Holy hell.

have you considered...just removing crit damage from guile and returning to a flat modifier.

[MegaBlues]

People really should stop having kneejerk reactions to losing is my take.

complaining about losing is one thing, complaining about getting 1/2-turned is another. a certain class got reworked for being able to do that much less consistently

i do think that in general, less things should be able to stack so that the game's pace is slower and more consistent. it's impossible to balance for both the high and low end when there's such a difference in power between them. people are worried about hypertanking coming back but hyperdamage is just as unfun

[FatherCrixius]

0.5 gpa activities

[Senna]

'Damn I lost! Nerf it!'
How? Because GUI has been in this state for +2~3 years, there hasn't been a major update that would boost this outside of the strength/axe thing yet this in the first thread in god knows how long of people talking about this? That alone is very ???.
And then people wonder why it's getting harder and harder to make viable builds and why everything is suddenly samey. Like Druid monster spine number #21.
Guile doesn't need a nerf. It's fine. It would have been better if you ask for a Cel buff or more hit debuffs buttons.
Ask for more tools, not take away tools.

And if you're asking 'Why am I getting two turned!' well, Cel builds are known for that. Ofc if someone stacks HIT to bypass your only reduction option then yes, you will die in 2 turns.

[Rendar]

Genuinely love how there's a whole lot of "This thread was made because you got owned".

It was made as a discussion topic of "Getting 360 hit probably shouldn't be possible." Because it's Hit buff. Stacks with Bonus Hit. Leading to situations where people can easily get 300+ hit. Is 360 hit hyperbole? It comes with caveats more than, sure. However 300 hit is more than enough to completely trounce a dodgy who is evade capping.

No one likes Hit Debuffs because they generally can stack to make your hit chance on a target negative. Evade Buffs cap at +50. Overcapping helps deal with situations like Druid who can reduce your evade by 40ish on a whim. Overcapping hit is FAR harder, and in most cases impossible. Flanking counting towards bonus hit wouldn't hit most people in every-day use cases. They'd still be able to swing upwards of 280~300 hit if they really tried. It wouldn't hit Dagger users pretty much at all, because the only Hit Buff Dagger users generally get is 7.5 from the Sword Talent. Or the +15 from hitting in someone's face. Which STILL wouldn't be used in this case. There are other miniscule amounts of +Hit that come out of other places. (Bonder is +20. BK is a few extra. Purity Edge is +15. MA is +10/+25 depending on if ur using base fist)... but in almost every single one of those instances? +40 hit from flanking (30 gui + 10 base with an ally adjacent) wouldn't even be touched.

The only real thing that would be getting hit is extreme Hit Stack cases with extremely high guile. The Highs are in the stratosphere, while the average person isn't getting remotely close to that level of usage.

Introducing More Hit Debuff buttons just further expands this divide, and makes the game even more lopsided for the Haves vs Have Nots. There's a reason Spellthief is a premium dodge class, and it's the +46 evade it can get on it's own without help. If another class got a -HIT buff ontop of it (See: Mass Brighten or Bombs).. but in the form of a status effect? Suddenly the shift is cataclysmically thrown towards Evades stacking that ontop of +50 evade. And now the less optimal builds. Are being shafted. Because they can't Hit anything.

Which??? then causes them to shift to Ultra High Hit builds???? Which gets rid of even more build viability???

[Nekojinn]

My problem with hit debuffs is that it hurts the lower end of hit far more than it hurts the high end.

Simply because it can very easily make low-end hit go into negative... which makes evade pretty broken.

I kinda just want a world where both the 240 evade build can exist without making the 250 hit build basically irrelevant,

And the 280 hit build can exist without making the 200 evade build irrelevant.

And I don't think these are big numbers at all, 240 evade is just 195 at cap, smoke and fear. (Or Omina Misfortune)

280 hit is just 230 base, +15 purity edge, +20 spirited brighten, +15(?) viper wrap, it really is easy to reach it. (And then you add flank or chivalry to make it even higher!)

If a 240 evade build goes against a 280-300 hit build, that will probably be more fair and luck will actually make these fights interesting!
The problem is whenever you don't have a hit debuff to go against a high hit
Or whenever you don't have a evade debuff/hit buff whenever going against high evade.

Maybe the solution is indeed more tools, but that would need to be several, like: hit buffs, hit debuffs, evade buffs and evade debuffs.

So, at the point of: 'Giving more tools', It would genuinely need to be an overhaul of most classes.

But, well, this is just my opinion, I respect the opinion of everyone that commented here, but I also think saying that the thread got made because someone lost is a bit disrespectful and makes the discussion just... weird?

Everyone has different views on how things should change, presenting counterpoints is much more friendly than just saying these things.

Either way, Love you all.

[Collector]

And if you're asking 'Why am I getting two turned!' well, Cel builds are known for that. Ofc if someone stacks HIT to bypass your only reduction option then yes, you will die in 2 turns.

I made the point of 'not an evade exclusive issue' because I wasn't being two turned by critters on dodgies explicitly, but on setups with 40/40 defenses and a bodyguard as well. They're built to both hit and kill you, not one at a time.