[Senna]

I like how this thread quickly devolved to balancing.


Before I even start, no, we do NOT need Global Fluer. You can run basic attacks just fine without it. Stop trying to be slothful.


It's safe to say the only reason why everyone seems 'samey' is because it's quite easy to use the standard selected items and skills and slap favor text on them. I won't say 'Hey! You can't be creative with your stuff!' and all? I'd say yes, it's possible to be creative and still viable. To make a build that isn't easily copy able and unique to the character/class. (I’ve done this before)


Is it easy? No. It takes a lot of determination and tuning to do.


Keeping a theme and concept is hard due to the existence of other powerful builds. This is ESPECIALLY hard to deal with as a new player and often turns their minds away from PvP. That's just how it is. 


It's not hard to optimize what you have and try to adjust it or figure out what could be the problem and work towards fixing that but motivation to improve and time is needed for such, otherwise, people will just hop to another character or just drift away from the game.


Yes, it's not easy to have a powerful can-win all build to fit whatever theme you have going, it's just how games like this work. You have limited tools to work with when it comes to things like that.


There is either a fun way of doing things, which might not always be the most optimizable and there is the simple easier to put together and always win. 


One is fun to do/use but you will lose more than win...Which could bite you in the ass if event mobs were design to combat meta/high standard builds to pose some challenge...You just happen to get the short end of the stick.


The other is easier, a lot more optimized and you can always win but is very repetitive and fun sucking for both the player and the opponents.



It’s just the curse of being too competitive.



There is no need to add onto what's already in the game to throw things off balance as is. There is no point in 'let's edit stats!' or 'Make evasive tanker...Kinda defeats the purpose of a tank!'. Those aren't needed as it is already possible to do quite impressive stuff on the game. As it is now, it’s very much so possible to be tankier than the standard tank and have enough to evade decent basic attackers without the need of Ice point guard or Ring of pearls.

Yes there are evasive builds that does not need to build accuracy either.


The problem with the game is this because some stuff is viable over others. Some skills are worth taking over others while some skills are far too situational or has little to no usable whatsoever. I understand it comes down to 'Not wanting things to become a must get' but that ideal can only go so far.


I do agree with the others in the case of 'Yes, some items need to be looked over and updated' since viability at the moment does categorize itself by two things.


'Can I get high SWA with this?' (One to three-star weapons)
or
'This item effect/skill is viable for pvp?'


This is mainly a problem due to how similar in scaling each weapons can be. Why wouldn't I pick Sweeper over Great Axe? Why wouldn't I pick Fullgust over Fullurricane? They all have similar stats scaling but one is just better than the other. This applies to other items.


That's how the meta build/Item selection begins. 


As for classes, I'd say the newer classes/updates/reworks that have been coming out has ticks-off boxes on many different accounts. From brand new to reworked, they have been viable in spells and skills; providing at least two different play style. This only falls into one major problem.



'What combination/combo will win me the fight over all'. 


‘Which is simple enough and an easy win button that's really hard to counterplay.’ 


That's just a balancing thing that won't easily be fixed without over-nerfing something or over-buffing something. When that happens, people will buy fruit or LE or make a new character and move on to the next big thing then try and make sense of how they got to that point with their character. 


Situations like 'I was once a powerful earth mage...Now I'm a powerful healer...With lightning magic!' (How did we even get to that point...? In a few days no less?)


tldr: 

It’s possible to be unique, it just takes a lot of effort.


Changes to stats and some game mechs such as evasion and 'Global fluer' aren't needed. That would only throw the game balancing out of whack and cause more problems than help.


Items need to be updated to create more viable options and so on from scaling or even item effects/potential that makes them unique over the other items.


Class coming out recently has been pretty okay, just a little strong here and there but please keep it up; you’ve been doing a really good job so far. Other older classes just need a touch up/rework to provide more play style options.


Meta? Not much can be done about meta slaves. You just have to be creative and give in to the fact that someone will just run the newest and strongest unga build.

[Sawrock]

hell yeah I’m a sloth

[WaifuApple]

I'd like to once again express my concern that this is once more being painted distinctly as a basic attacker problem, and it feels as if that is completely missing the point, because even when you "fix" the issues that come with basic attacking in terms of momentum economy on classes, and the weaknesses of evasion, you're still going to have the same problem.

There are still going to be items that people want above all else in this climate, and sure your classes may be different, but it stands to reason you're probably still using the exact same narrow pool of weapons. In a sense, you're basically doing the same thing. Class diversity helps somewhat, and that's what'd theoretically be achieved (unless of course changes bring about a new optimal, which will just become standard, like will usually happen).

But it's no way even half of the bigger picture. You solve the basic attacker and evade problems, but when it comes down to it you still have the exact same problems lurking in mages and autohit users. Lack of creativity or variation because some things are just better.

If we're going to put out a good idea of why things feel so similar for Dev, I feel like a such a narrow set of focus isn't so ideal. Creativity should be promoted across the board for all classes, through making more of the item pool viable. There's always going to be a meta, of course, and we're only as strong as our weakest link, so if a small collective devolve into it, everyone will, or just give up building, so the goal should be to put more things up at that level. "Strong" and "Unique" should not be mutually exclusive.

I think that in itself is more of a priority for creativity's sake than patching up the needs of one type of combatant, which strays more into the same points of balance being made forever, and nothing more.

[WaifuApple]

I'm not entirely sure why my post was quoted for this, I wasn't exactly singling out what you'd said and criticising, honestly - I was more trying to highlight the fact that the post so far has been completely skewed in favour of the same talk of global fleur and evasion buffs, as if there's only one play-style with that sort of creativity problem, when to be honest it's practically running in the blood of the game.

I feel that it just needs to be stressed again and again that this problem extends further than just the current focus, and I will put that forward as much as I can to make sure Dev understands that this isn't just about basic attackers, as it feels most of the responses are making it out to be.

It just often feels like nobody cares about that, the style of playing is powerful, why complain about it? Because it's not unique, you're put down to just another tank, just another mage, etc, to people. You don't have much space to stand out and be different.

This isn't about what should and shouldn't feel strong, at least to me. It's about feeling unique. In strength, some playstyles are better than others, but in uniqueness, and standing out, most playstyles are in a bit of crisis.

Edit: For context, the post I was responding to was deleted. I'm not crazy I promise

[Snake]

Boy oh boy I do hope I didn't get trounced when I asked for underperforming skills/passives to be addressed, even if I strongly support Global Fleur's addition for testing purposes.

Also, can we remember the fact that Global Evasion was also "not necessary it would make dodge people too stronk!!11one omg why is that geist shritt 2.0" and look at where it got us, asking it to be a little better?

Cut the dorama. That's what testing is for. If it ends well, great, if it doesn't, boo hoo. Back to the drawing board.

It ain't on us to decide if that goes in or not in the game, we're here just to provide useful data.

Additionally, and mainly at Apple above. I think people just want that implemented so it becomes a subject in the past and we can continue this crusade against what's not viable in SL2. It'd be nice to respect that opinion since Global Fleur always ends up making every discussion of what would allow the game give people more freedom, to gag and choke. Once that's out of the way we can probably address other things.

Because well. Beyond basic hitting people at the moment, there's no real glaring issues that needs to be brought to light beyond nerfing the fairly large list of broken things.

[Snake]

The other elephant has to do with the one way to make an evasive build stand up to it's defensive big brother, Cobra Demon Hunter.

Now, despite the meme, I do not hate demon hunter, I do not think it is overpowered, and Cobra has enough blind spots to make playing against it tactically interesting.

What it is, is viable and strong. The only way to make evasion without DEF/RES viable and strong in my experience. 

So if you want to portray a character who survives by dodging attacks over powering through them you're trapped playing demon hunter, in much the same way a basic attacker is trapped playing duelist. Which means that in many ways, a global evasion buff could push it into being overpowered if not handled in a way that considers Cobra.

Also don't sleep on this. That's what limits us. Things locked to a single class and -forcing- people who are roleplaying a specific aspect to adhere to it or suck it. How many of these Cobra Stance Demon Hunters ever want to relate to their IC class as a Demon Hunter? Most of them just roleplay as if 'haha I can dodge like this, I'm not a demon hunter'. And that kind of makes me the big sad.

Traits exist to allow us to customize how we want our chars to be, but they don't nearly give us significant things, since everyone be picking the same due to no drawbacks, so... 'eh'.

Additionally.

It’s possible to be unique, it just takes a lot of effort.

"Effort to be unique"? You can easily be unique in SL2 in a few easy steps and 9 out of 10 times be similar in performance to whoever put effort into that.

- Strip all your items
- Go Summoner/Summoner.

- Probably notice no one cares about your efforts to be unique and join the meta after losing a million times to snarky assholes who call your build trash.

It ain't hard. But why doesn't everyone do that?... It's a mystery... It's unique, isn't it? That should fix the problems everyone have, right?

Yes, this is sarcasm.

[Autumn]

I'm not entirely sure why my post was quoted for this, I wasn't exactly singling out what you'd said and criticising, honestly - I was more trying to highlight the fact that the post so far has been completely skewed in favour of the same talk of global fleur and evasion buffs, as if there's only one play-style with that sort of creativity problem, when to be honest it's practically running in the blood of the game.

I feel that it just needs to be stressed again and again that this problem extends further than just the current focus, and I will put that forward as much as I can to make sure Dev understands that this isn't just about basic attackers, as it feels most of the responses are making it out to be.

It just often feels like nobody cares about that, the style of playing is powerful, why complain about it? Because it's not unique, you're put down to just another tank, just another mage, etc, to people. You don't have much space to stand out and be different.

This isn't about what should and shouldn't feel strong, at least to me. It's about feeling unique. In strength, some playstyles are better than others, but in uniqueness, and standing out, most playstyles are in a bit of crisis.

The point some people are trying to make here is that statting up a tank or mage already feels unique, you have so little need for stats comparatively to basic attackers that you can just fit in less-than-desirable stats to sort of fuel your desires with, a mage can slot in almost any element that they want, even acid and still have unique traits apart from other mages, liikewise for tanks.

The point that is being made in regards to basic attacking, and why it devolves to this, is because basic attacking's stat tax is tremendous, and item scaling is not diverse enough to support that.

Imagine for a moment, there should be at least 1 of the following archetypes of scaling for every single weapon type:
-Primarily or entirely STR scaling weapon
-Primarily or entirely WIL scaling weapon
-Primarily SKI scaling weapons
-Primarily or entirely GUI scaling weapons.
-Primarily LUC scaling weapons

I think we've hit a certain point where STR has become worth it as a stat again, and so we can open up avenues where builds are not required to be using it, for example:

-What if the Magical Weapon line was 100% WIL 10% STR
-What if some Katanas like Hisen/Sogensara were more dexterity based, scaling from SKI/GUI

and so many more possibilities. The point that is being made here is that its going to devolve to basic attacking, because basic attacking or dodging feels unfair compared to just bulking up and hiding behind a shield while throwing rocks or water.

ADDENDUM: I don't think Dev ever intended for us to be putting in so many stats, given how the soft cap used to work at the start of GR I think the original intention was to have 40 + racial base in a stat in order to maximize its efficiency, but as it stands. We're going upwards to the higher 50s and lower 60s, perhaps this could also be the problem, and also why tanking is so efficient comparatively to other methods.

[Lolzytripd]

The point some people are trying to make here is that statting up a tank or mage already feels unique,  you have so little need for stats comparatively to basic attackers that you can just fit in less-than-desirable stats to sort of fuel your desires with, a mage can slot in almost any element that they want, even acid and still have unique traits apart from other mages, liikewise for tanks.

The point that is being made in regards to basic attacking, and why it devolves to this, is because basic attacking's stat tax is tremendous, and item scaling is not diverse enough to support that.

Imagine for a moment, there should be at least 1 of the following archetypes of scaling for every single weapon:
-Primarily or entirely STR scaling weapon
-Primarily or entirely WIL scaling weapon
-Primarily SKI scaling weapons
-Primarily or entirely GUI scaling weapons.
-Primarily LUC scaling weapons

I think we've hit a certain point where STR has become worth it as a stat again, and so we can open up avenues where builds are not required to be using it, for example:

-What if the Magical Weapon line was 100% WIL 10% STR
-What if some Katanas like Hisen/Sogensara were more dexterity based, scaling from SKI/GUI

and so many more possibilities. The point that is being made here is that its going to devolve to basic attacking, because basic attacking or dodging feels unfair compared to just bulking up and hiding behind a shield while throwing rocks or water.

ADDENDUM: I don't think Dev ever intended for us to be putting in so many stats, given how the soft cap used to work at the start of GR I think the original intention was to have 40 + racial base in a stat in order to maximize its effiecency, bit as ot stands..we're going upwards to the higher 50s and lower 60s, perhaps this could also be the problem, and also why tanking is so efficient comparatively to other methods.

which is why I feel Strength and guile need a divorce, where both are good for critting and basic attacking, but both aren't required. I believe the best way to do that is taking away crit damage from guile (which also lets daggers have higher swa with better, purer guile scalings) and give guile something new to do, such as bypassing DR at .5% per stat increase.  Crit damage would then return to Pre gr calculations, 200% base before weapon modifiers/class skills.

In fact giving guile DR penetration fits thematically with the acid element, and could even lead to a new breed of mages that put less points in tank stats and more points into guile so the can bypass a portion of the enemy's magic defense.

with this basic attackers would only have to slot into Strength or Guile +Skill and Luck. They would then have the same degree of freedom autohit/mage builds have. The problem with buffing basic attacks in any other way that lets them build more uniquely without divorcing strength from guile results in weapons that scale on guile being too free and become Omnitanks that also do dump trucks of damage.

[Shujin]

ADDENDUM: I don't think Dev ever intended for us to be putting in so many stats, given how the soft cap used to work at the start of GR I think the original intention was to have 40 + racial base in a stat in order to maximize its effiecency, bit as ot stands..we're going upwards to the higher 50s and lower 60s, perhaps this could also be the problem, and also why tanking is so efficient comparatively to other methods.

I think overall good points have been made, but I want to reply to this here. 
I think its honestly more that defensive stats are more effective, since they fullfill 2 roles at the same time, making them twice as valuable as pure offensive stats. I think many problems that we have could be reduced by alot if defensive stat scaling on weapons was massively reduced or even removed. I know what you mean by saying this but I feel like if we reduced the Stats per level for example, basic attackers have it even harder. 
Its not the amount of stat points that makes a tanky mage being able to fill in a fluff stat. Its that they need less stats to be effective because of how powerful these stats are. Vise versa the fast basic attacker archetypes struggles cause they need so many stats to even fullfill their base needs and then some.
Just my personal take on this point in particular. 


As another example of what works versus what doesn't:

My main character that I have pretty much played since the start of SL2, that I have played alot has a rather simple concept combat wise and always has been doing something like that with light shifts when something was just not working anymore.
Skilled Swordman with high ice focus, fast and versatile who just goes into the field.

Since I am as a person am trying to avoid meta as much as I can, in favour of a good character concept who then attempts to use maximize efficiency of that concept as long as I can justify it.

So to create the character I imagine that I pictured in my head I went and is I believe fairly unique overall (well duh its not super effective so why would someone?):

Firbird with sword and verglas. Cause Kensei doesn't help with baisc attacks at all anymore and Ghost just doesn't fit the image of her that I want, atleast not if I want to play ghost effective. Firebird has atleast the cool concept that I like, that she is stronger when surrounded by Ice.

Though with how Verglas works now you need a massively large skillpool, since verglas also uses fist weapons, I can not get away from building Strength unless I entirely gimp my damage (which is already low) so additionally to what normal basic attackers have to deal with...I need a lot of Wil to have FP and some extra skillpool slots (I still have 7 skills I kinda wanna use in my backburner but cause they are niche/dodge skills I am sorta okay with it. I jus talso have alot of Skillpoints on calsses left to spend so I kinda wish I could make stuff like brainfreeze etc. a no slotter)

I attempt to compensate for my squishyness by using Phoenix talon/Meditate to generate more HP but that drives me away from the "Just go in and fight" mentallity that I used to have with her pre Kensei/Verglas update espically if I try to use ice greavers/ice point guard to further compensate for lack of survialbility and damage. Instead what happend is that I have to spend serval turns buffing which makes me feel "Slow" but hey better than not standing a chance at all.

The problem is that even while trying to go through the mental gymnastic to try and figure something out with extreme effort, it will never be as effective as one of the current cookie cutter builds. I could make this work if I gave up on Basic attacks and instead build for tank/auto attacks(which kinda compromises my efforts in long-term playing this char when someone does the 'smarter' thing and just follows the meta and suddenly is the new ice king. Same problem that our certain Mercalan priest has). But thats not what I think is fun to play, I love the flashy speed of basic attackers and the rewarding feel you get for landing big combos, even if each hit just deals 27 damage on a crit, its fun to watch.  I do not want to have the first few rounds a starring contest of buffing up, and go straight into the fray what I could do before with Kensei/verglas cause they had all these passive things making the gameplay feel much more fluid and put you in the position where you could apply pressure.
Instead now I see me buffing up, see a Chargemind on the other side and already know "I am dead." And still have only half my buffs applied. It went even so far that at some point we speculated that even if I landed a Vorpal hit with every attack, I'd still lose the damage race. And thats just giving me that big ol "Why bother?" feel. Unga bunga beats strategy most of the time.
Others went and became "meta slaves", cause thats still better than nothing I went and just stopped playing cause I didn't enjoy the gameplay anymore.
heck I love the game, but I do not like to be forced into that one route of being "Samey" to be able to compete at all, espically if most people see PvP as their one and only holy grail of solving/progressing events.




That all is fine and dandy but...I overall agree that there is a lot of railroading in the equipment system simply because most weapons do not have anything going for them, awkward scaling and sometimes the effects so niche that you do maybe see them once in your lifetime actually used. One of the prime examples of that are Fangfare daggers. Super rare, scaling ain't too bad, could be better but its okay it can work. But its effect? Heck its a chance even with two of them, only on pure dodges and even then you teleport behind them and create an ice statue which...You can't really do much with, but I guess it looks cool? Just that no one will ever bother using basic attacks against you to begin with, if they cant hit. Making a super rare weapon not only niche, but even the niche isn't good for anything but being stylish (But I personally give plus points for being stylish), but ultimately inferior to very easily to get weapons like fan daggers with on hits or Vorpals.

I could give many more examples, how fists with all being strength make it difficult to do anything but Auto Attacks. How many weapons are just the other weapon but slightly better (Ironically usually the lower star ones being the better option when it comes to "Upgrade weapons")
And so on. Many here have made good points and many here have a way better grasp of whats currently going on with the game, I haven't played it actively for almost 2 years now just sometimes snowing in and testing new toys and see whats kicking. So my Opinion in parts is probably not entirely up to date, but from what I have heard and seen? Most of it have only gotten worse instead of better.

[Lolzytripd]

----

I think overall good points have been made, but I want to reply to this here. 
I think its honestly more that defensive stats are more effective, since they fullfill 2 roles at the same time, making them twice as valuable as pure offensive stats. I think many problems that we have could be reduced by alot if defensive stat scaling on weapons was massively reduced or even removed. I know what you mean by saying this but I feel like if we reduced the Stats per level for example, basic attackers have it even harder. 
Its not the amount of stat points that makes a tanky mage being able to fill in a fluff stat. Its that they need less stats to be effective because of how powerful these stats are. Vise versa the fast basic attacker archetypes struggles cause they need so many stats to even fullfill their base needs and then some.

You hit the nail on the head Shu, which is why I feel part of the solution is divorcing Strength and guile from each other.  You do that and Suddenly Strength basic attacks can afford a bit of variety in their builds that the Guile and Skill basic attackers have been enjoying for years. I'm also partial to the idea of stripping away the power from defensive scaling weapons or just outright rescale them.

https://neus-projects.net/forums/showthr...p?tid=7964 <--- my stat idea.