10-21-2022, 10:27 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-21-2022, 10:33 AM by DerpyMcPandos.
Edit Reason: Spacing (formatting issues)
)
Salutations,
The hour that this came to the team's collective attention was rather late. However, what the team collectively decided that this warranted a rather immediate response, which I decided to provide the writing for.
Now, for the sake of making my response clean and coherent, I'll be paraphrasing Anhita's points as best I can in order to summarise the most salient arguments and respond to them, rather than getting bogged down:
1: That the GM's were forced to take action and give Fairview an outcome for which Meiaquar's leadership is taking the majority of the IC blame for,
2: That the reason for this blame is due to the outcome that was brokered was one that was unfavourable to Meiaquar,
3: That the main outcome that is of issue was the fact that the two leaders of Fairview (Ashvath/Yurippe) were permitted to be exiled and,
4: That this sets a concerning precedent due to the implication that people can flaunt their 'Permissions' in a way to force these kinds of unacceptable and improper outcomes.
Likewise, I'll paraphrase Lumi's arguments, which while mostly are an affirmation of Anhita's arguments from their own perspective, but with an addition. That being that there was a lull (Which Anhita referenced), where time was 'wasted'. I will assume this time period was from the close of the first day of sieging, to the current time.
I'll add my summation before this occurs, but given this incident, I believe the GM team will be taking a much more rigorous approach into looking into the negotiations and setting much clearer and firmer 'consequences' for their actions. I likely speak for the entirety of staff when I say that we did not want to see such an outcome that left individuals displeased with the progression of the RP. Much of what lead up to it was IC and the pay off seems to have left many displeased. We apologise for not having been proactive in and rather being forced to have reactively attempted to mend the situation when it was already clear too much damage had happened.
However, with that out of the way, I will get into details and demonstrate the time-line of events from the staff's perspective.
Firstly, I hope this comes as no surprise, but I would like to note that the staff were already aware of and anticipating problems like this. After the community's reception to the OOC around Geladyne and Wasgow/Beggar's Hole, we collectively wanted to facilitate a means of collaborating and avoiding miscommunications. This was done through the creation of a private channel on the server discord where-in we invited the leadership of Meiaquar and Fairview as we identified them to talk terms. Our policy at that time was to be off hand and provide several guiding principles that would lay the ground work for some kind of resolution that would leave both sides more or less satisfied with the outcome of events. Dev himself was involved in this
A snippet of said principles will be embedded below (Highlights my own):
![[Image: 3CoqaRRDIQ.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/988624018162745394/1032932365691007016/3CoqaRRDIQ.png)
We had hoped that this would prove to have been the end of it, thought that with these rules in place, as well as some small scale intervention on the part of us as the GM team and event runners, that this could be made into an enjoyable experience for both sides of the conflict.
This was not the case. Despite GM attention, there was little in the way of actual planning with a lot of matters coming to be decided on the 11th hour. We had come into it with the best intentions from the individuals we chose to invite into deliberations, and expected mature handling from everyone. We did not pursue exact plans or a point to point plan, but I do not particularly feel a need to harp on those points, mostly because it would be a hassle and too long to point out every single assertion and claim made by either party. Only that there were miscommunications in spite of the channel as to planning, player numbers available for each side on the event and so-forth. There was a plan in action, but as it followed, it was not actually executed. The original plan had enough players on Fairview's side to permit multiple fights, with event runners/staff watching and tallying wins/losses in a way that would allow for the 'siege' to occur over an increased period of time.
The specific terms of a win or loss were not explicitly agreed upon, though there was gestures from both sides as to their wants at the conclusion of the conflict, no specific details were yielded up. I suppose both sides were of the opinion to let the IC progress before it occurred.
Likewise, the GMs were conscious of providing an 'enjoyable experience', this is where the second highlighted part I noted of 'respecting others and compromising' comes in. We had seen that folks were against conflicts that had an air of unfairness, and wanted to provide a way to circumvent that through explicitly encouraging and reminding folks that Roleplay, fundamentally, is a collaborative environment. Or in plainer language: You give a little for the sake of ensuring everyone has fun. Likewise, to nip any issues in the bud regarding the employment or lack there-of of NPCs, this was in line with ensuring player agency in conflicts and not handwaving issues away through mysterious corps of faceless troopers.
Initially, despite some hiccups seen at the start of the event. There was little in the way of problematic developments as we identified, though admittantly the numerical situation with Fairview rapidly became apparent as Meiaquar was able to convince a majority to stand down as non-combatants or the like, which lead to a single combat occurring. This lasted a long time, and eventually the IC call was made by the attacking parties' combat commander to withdraw. They maintain that this was in respect of Fairview's interests since they mentioned they were being exhausted in the looc.
Due to complications, this withdrawal did not occur in any timely way, and was eventually forced to be done via GM intervention. The first day of the siege was considered concluded at that point, and so talks resumed OOCly. Naturally, this was a fair thing to do. Things had changed from the initial plan based on IC and bases had to be touched to ensure that matters were still on track for an easy conclusion.
At this point, negotiations broke down. I'll be nipping another bud but do not expect logs or specific details. However, I will be clear and mention that there was an incredible obstinence from Mother and Kyratio, though more-so the former than the latter, that lead to no conclusion being reached. This was not due to a lack of trying. Meiaquar and all the GMs tried to veer the discussion onto some kind of course that would lead to a key discussion of:
How the matter would be resolved in terms of combats
What the consequences of said combat would be.
These negotiations went on for at least a day or two, with irrelevant points being raised from Fairview's negotiators as there was essentially a hardline taken with Ashvath and Yurippe being allowed to survive in some way or another. This was, in all honesty, irrational of them as they did not seem aware of the consequences that seceding would yield. They of course, had rationale for this, but I will note that the reason for their beliefs was not made very well apparent because of their bellicose arguing. The matter got severe enough that slow was placed on the channel, and then eventually a complete mute on speaking. This was done because the team had eventually realised after so long of trying to convince Fairview and giving them the benefit of the doubt, that it was not worth it to continue talking to them.
To this end, the GM team instead elected to select other members to represent Fairview OOCly. A second chat was created sans those two players where we asked the players their perspective on things, uncovering a large amount of the OOC confusion that had been around the planning, and received a much clearer expression of interests from them, as opposed to Mother or Kyratio. With that in mind, we invited Meiaquar into this second chat and they were both able to settle an agreement.
I will take this chance to dispel any concerns that Fairview is only 2 people, and that there were in fact others. And they, from what they told us, wanted to see an end to this and wanted to minimise the 'sour taste' for everyone. We wholeheartedly agreed to this principle, and decided that since the other members of Fairview wanted a conclusion that spared Ashvath and Yurippe, that we would accommodate this. It was not the staff's unilateral decision in that regard, but striving to minimise gripes. There was a prevalent air of OOC exhaustion and exasperation, and people wanted to move past it, get an amicable end, and continue their roleplay.
Frankly, had the group we talked to been of a mind to proverbially throw Yuri and Ash to the dogs in return for their safety, we would have accommodated that want. At that point, it was clear from conversations that Kyratio and Mother were completely done with the matter. The team likewise was, to the point I personally informed the two of them that there would be a conclusion to the matter wherein they shouldn't expect their "Lack of attendence to derail the conclusion of this (the event)"
This leaves us at the current, where I can quite well understand any outsider's perspectives on things. Many of the attacking members showed up to a fight, stood around as a group of four fought, and then waited a few days before a conclusion was hashed out. Defenders were likewise placed in the same situation. A lot of the roleplay leading up to it was essentially rendered in service of an unsatisfactory outcome.
For this, We apologise. We had tried to avoid such an outcome, but regrettably we came to one regardless, and tried to fix it in some way, leading to the current events. Moving on, we will likely be using this to implement ways of ensuring that logical outcomes and fairness aren't forced into direct competition, but can rather be meshed for the sake of telling a cohesive story. It was never our intent to dictate what's done, but I'd like to extend an offer to people who are in leadership positions or intend to be to reach out to us if you feel there are concerns over this, especially if you seek to engage in antagonistic behaviour. Our goal remains in providing for a fun and entertaining environment to all.
And while I have only recounted so far, I think it is pertinent to note the staff did take collective note of how brazen it was for Yurippe and Ashvath to continually escape persecution by the skin of their teeth so I, on behalf of the team provided them the following warning:
![[Image: I5wJlaT.png]](https://i.imgur.com/I5wJlaT.png)
Essentially, the Staff was no longer interested in entertaining good will as a reason to allow them to continue being around, and we also re-iterated to them, as I did to you all earlier, that it was not their decision that they had survived, but rather the collective of Fairview, without their personal input.
So, in conclusion, I will revisit the points made and half agree that the GMs were forced to make a decision on behalf of Meiaquar. We instead facilitated a different means of reaching a conclusion after the original negotiations had become fruitless and we acknowledge that people getting away lightly with matters of heavy ramifications is unsatisfying, and we want to structure our means of handling matters like this in a way that doesn't result in such outcomes heading forward.
Some may be dissatisfied with the solution, especially when the one battle we could deliberate on ended up in a stalemate, but it was one made with the goals of both Meiaquar and Fairview in mind, and so it was reached as a compromise, as giving Meiaquar a complete victory would have lead to others being left dissatisfied, who at this point want to simply move on.
-Pando
The hour that this came to the team's collective attention was rather late. However, what the team collectively decided that this warranted a rather immediate response, which I decided to provide the writing for.
Now, for the sake of making my response clean and coherent, I'll be paraphrasing Anhita's points as best I can in order to summarise the most salient arguments and respond to them, rather than getting bogged down:
1: That the GM's were forced to take action and give Fairview an outcome for which Meiaquar's leadership is taking the majority of the IC blame for,
2: That the reason for this blame is due to the outcome that was brokered was one that was unfavourable to Meiaquar,
3: That the main outcome that is of issue was the fact that the two leaders of Fairview (Ashvath/Yurippe) were permitted to be exiled and,
4: That this sets a concerning precedent due to the implication that people can flaunt their 'Permissions' in a way to force these kinds of unacceptable and improper outcomes.
Likewise, I'll paraphrase Lumi's arguments, which while mostly are an affirmation of Anhita's arguments from their own perspective, but with an addition. That being that there was a lull (Which Anhita referenced), where time was 'wasted'. I will assume this time period was from the close of the first day of sieging, to the current time.
I'll add my summation before this occurs, but given this incident, I believe the GM team will be taking a much more rigorous approach into looking into the negotiations and setting much clearer and firmer 'consequences' for their actions. I likely speak for the entirety of staff when I say that we did not want to see such an outcome that left individuals displeased with the progression of the RP. Much of what lead up to it was IC and the pay off seems to have left many displeased. We apologise for not having been proactive in and rather being forced to have reactively attempted to mend the situation when it was already clear too much damage had happened.
However, with that out of the way, I will get into details and demonstrate the time-line of events from the staff's perspective.
Firstly, I hope this comes as no surprise, but I would like to note that the staff were already aware of and anticipating problems like this. After the community's reception to the OOC around Geladyne and Wasgow/Beggar's Hole, we collectively wanted to facilitate a means of collaborating and avoiding miscommunications. This was done through the creation of a private channel on the server discord where-in we invited the leadership of Meiaquar and Fairview as we identified them to talk terms. Our policy at that time was to be off hand and provide several guiding principles that would lay the ground work for some kind of resolution that would leave both sides more or less satisfied with the outcome of events. Dev himself was involved in this
A snippet of said principles will be embedded below (Highlights my own):
We had hoped that this would prove to have been the end of it, thought that with these rules in place, as well as some small scale intervention on the part of us as the GM team and event runners, that this could be made into an enjoyable experience for both sides of the conflict.
This was not the case. Despite GM attention, there was little in the way of actual planning with a lot of matters coming to be decided on the 11th hour. We had come into it with the best intentions from the individuals we chose to invite into deliberations, and expected mature handling from everyone. We did not pursue exact plans or a point to point plan, but I do not particularly feel a need to harp on those points, mostly because it would be a hassle and too long to point out every single assertion and claim made by either party. Only that there were miscommunications in spite of the channel as to planning, player numbers available for each side on the event and so-forth. There was a plan in action, but as it followed, it was not actually executed. The original plan had enough players on Fairview's side to permit multiple fights, with event runners/staff watching and tallying wins/losses in a way that would allow for the 'siege' to occur over an increased period of time.
The specific terms of a win or loss were not explicitly agreed upon, though there was gestures from both sides as to their wants at the conclusion of the conflict, no specific details were yielded up. I suppose both sides were of the opinion to let the IC progress before it occurred.
Likewise, the GMs were conscious of providing an 'enjoyable experience', this is where the second highlighted part I noted of 'respecting others and compromising' comes in. We had seen that folks were against conflicts that had an air of unfairness, and wanted to provide a way to circumvent that through explicitly encouraging and reminding folks that Roleplay, fundamentally, is a collaborative environment. Or in plainer language: You give a little for the sake of ensuring everyone has fun. Likewise, to nip any issues in the bud regarding the employment or lack there-of of NPCs, this was in line with ensuring player agency in conflicts and not handwaving issues away through mysterious corps of faceless troopers.
Initially, despite some hiccups seen at the start of the event. There was little in the way of problematic developments as we identified, though admittantly the numerical situation with Fairview rapidly became apparent as Meiaquar was able to convince a majority to stand down as non-combatants or the like, which lead to a single combat occurring. This lasted a long time, and eventually the IC call was made by the attacking parties' combat commander to withdraw. They maintain that this was in respect of Fairview's interests since they mentioned they were being exhausted in the looc.
Due to complications, this withdrawal did not occur in any timely way, and was eventually forced to be done via GM intervention. The first day of the siege was considered concluded at that point, and so talks resumed OOCly. Naturally, this was a fair thing to do. Things had changed from the initial plan based on IC and bases had to be touched to ensure that matters were still on track for an easy conclusion.
At this point, negotiations broke down. I'll be nipping another bud but do not expect logs or specific details. However, I will be clear and mention that there was an incredible obstinence from Mother and Kyratio, though more-so the former than the latter, that lead to no conclusion being reached. This was not due to a lack of trying. Meiaquar and all the GMs tried to veer the discussion onto some kind of course that would lead to a key discussion of:
How the matter would be resolved in terms of combats
What the consequences of said combat would be.
These negotiations went on for at least a day or two, with irrelevant points being raised from Fairview's negotiators as there was essentially a hardline taken with Ashvath and Yurippe being allowed to survive in some way or another. This was, in all honesty, irrational of them as they did not seem aware of the consequences that seceding would yield. They of course, had rationale for this, but I will note that the reason for their beliefs was not made very well apparent because of their bellicose arguing. The matter got severe enough that slow was placed on the channel, and then eventually a complete mute on speaking. This was done because the team had eventually realised after so long of trying to convince Fairview and giving them the benefit of the doubt, that it was not worth it to continue talking to them.
To this end, the GM team instead elected to select other members to represent Fairview OOCly. A second chat was created sans those two players where we asked the players their perspective on things, uncovering a large amount of the OOC confusion that had been around the planning, and received a much clearer expression of interests from them, as opposed to Mother or Kyratio. With that in mind, we invited Meiaquar into this second chat and they were both able to settle an agreement.
I will take this chance to dispel any concerns that Fairview is only 2 people, and that there were in fact others. And they, from what they told us, wanted to see an end to this and wanted to minimise the 'sour taste' for everyone. We wholeheartedly agreed to this principle, and decided that since the other members of Fairview wanted a conclusion that spared Ashvath and Yurippe, that we would accommodate this. It was not the staff's unilateral decision in that regard, but striving to minimise gripes. There was a prevalent air of OOC exhaustion and exasperation, and people wanted to move past it, get an amicable end, and continue their roleplay.
Frankly, had the group we talked to been of a mind to proverbially throw Yuri and Ash to the dogs in return for their safety, we would have accommodated that want. At that point, it was clear from conversations that Kyratio and Mother were completely done with the matter. The team likewise was, to the point I personally informed the two of them that there would be a conclusion to the matter wherein they shouldn't expect their "Lack of attendence to derail the conclusion of this (the event)"
This leaves us at the current, where I can quite well understand any outsider's perspectives on things. Many of the attacking members showed up to a fight, stood around as a group of four fought, and then waited a few days before a conclusion was hashed out. Defenders were likewise placed in the same situation. A lot of the roleplay leading up to it was essentially rendered in service of an unsatisfactory outcome.
For this, We apologise. We had tried to avoid such an outcome, but regrettably we came to one regardless, and tried to fix it in some way, leading to the current events. Moving on, we will likely be using this to implement ways of ensuring that logical outcomes and fairness aren't forced into direct competition, but can rather be meshed for the sake of telling a cohesive story. It was never our intent to dictate what's done, but I'd like to extend an offer to people who are in leadership positions or intend to be to reach out to us if you feel there are concerns over this, especially if you seek to engage in antagonistic behaviour. Our goal remains in providing for a fun and entertaining environment to all.
And while I have only recounted so far, I think it is pertinent to note the staff did take collective note of how brazen it was for Yurippe and Ashvath to continually escape persecution by the skin of their teeth so I, on behalf of the team provided them the following warning:
Essentially, the Staff was no longer interested in entertaining good will as a reason to allow them to continue being around, and we also re-iterated to them, as I did to you all earlier, that it was not their decision that they had survived, but rather the collective of Fairview, without their personal input.
So, in conclusion, I will revisit the points made and half agree that the GMs were forced to make a decision on behalf of Meiaquar. We instead facilitated a different means of reaching a conclusion after the original negotiations had become fruitless and we acknowledge that people getting away lightly with matters of heavy ramifications is unsatisfying, and we want to structure our means of handling matters like this in a way that doesn't result in such outcomes heading forward.
Some may be dissatisfied with the solution, especially when the one battle we could deliberate on ended up in a stalemate, but it was one made with the goals of both Meiaquar and Fairview in mind, and so it was reached as a compromise, as giving Meiaquar a complete victory would have lead to others being left dissatisfied, who at this point want to simply move on.
-Pando
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