[Autumn]

This is a complaint I've had for a little while, but I do believe that absurdly high elemental ATKs need to be addressed, Impure Element is one of the primary abusers of this but there can be others, Sound ATK can get absurdly high, Ice ATK can get absurdly high, fire ATK can get absurdly high.

Anything with Luminary tends to just get some ridiculously large numbers, to the point where you can see like 100-150 elemental ATK on people without impure element at all, 100 seems fine to me but anything beyond that really starts to push out how much damage skills that scale purely elemental ATK can do, dances are one of the more primary abusers of these pure elemental scalings but you can also see stuff like Summoner Evokes, Water tentacles, Solsphere etc. take the wheel as well.

Some ideas were thrown around and the one I really liked at the time was potentially introducing a soft cap for elemental ATKs, this would make them work more similarly to stats do in that they can't get way too high for players to min max and abuse, I can't exactly say right now what would be the most balanced numbers, but I'd like to see 200 elemental ATK memes go away, hell I think even 130 ice ATK should be hard to reach, the main problem arises with elemental ATKs exceeding 100 for the most part.

Or perhaps the issue solely lies upon Luminary Element and Impure Element, both of these are the absolute primary abusers of letting people achieve just absurdly high elemental ATKs, with Luminary ignoring the soft cap of WIL and with Impure Element being the largest elemental ATK boost in the game, I feel like Impure Element was never meant to be abused by sources of self damage either to begin with.

Either way, staunching the ability to achieve over 120-130 elemental ATK is my primary focus, this is the line where it goes from being "Really high" to just downright stupid, it is straight up not fun to have to deal with a thunder steps that deals literally 300-400 damage per proc, or similarly ice slide, or lord's flame, etc.

[Sawrock]

I wasn't even aware luminary ignored the soft cap on WIL. I've got to redo my dark attack mage build now...

[Lolzytripd]

I feel that what these builds give up to achieve nuclear damage is fair, you give up your chest and glove enchants for damage, your accessory is the +5 ele attack and either a high mage cape or impure element activator, you wear dragon queen shoes, and your chest slot is a default priestrobe or class torso

Hp floats between 600 and 700, evade is subpar, a level 60 flamewing is a threat.

This reaction is the same as asking for crit damage to be soft capped to diminishing returns past 1.75% crit mod


If anything should be nerfed it should be bards dances.

[Raigen.Convict]

I am in complete opposite oppinion in that if you strive to hit this hard you should be granted it but should be frail in exchange.

[Snake]

Luminary Element is fine mostly because to reach those big numbers you need to trade away a lot of things that'd make your build well-rounded, for no more than like 60-62 Scaled WIL as you maxcap it. It's the same debacle as Undeniable Innovator, but you have more control over how much you're losing out on other stats, for building damage instead. I'd not touch this whatsoever, it's the most unique and self-balancing trait we have in the game right now.

Impure Element? You bet it needs a bap of some sort. At the very least, making it not work with self-inflicted damage for a starter. If this gets changed, I believe it'd be more than fine to have it be higher, even. Like 2x your Void Energy, since it'll be extremely unreliable to use this way.

A hard cap to elemental attack? I dunno, man. I'm on the fence, but leaning more on 'why bother'. Not many liked when I wanted Hit to be capped, which could definitely even fix problems with Bard's dances making dodge a hard counter to it, but it is what it is.

[Poruku]

As others have said, I believe it's balanced because you gove up a lot of stats to be able to get there. Luminary in particular.

I think perhaps we should be looking at specific skills for nerfs. Or conversely, perhaps we should be buffing SWA-based skills. Something like Lance de Lion or Eclair or Kensei skills or elimonate with their 140%+ swa tend to struggle in terms of damage, not quite reaching the heights that can be reached with a proper 100% swa + 120% ele atk spell. You could argue that elemental damage is less reliable due to resistances, though.

Either way, I don't think luminary itself is a problem. If you have 160 ele attack, you earned it, and I know I can blow you up in 1 turn just as well

[Autumn]

I am in complete opposite oppinion in that if you strive to hit this hard you should be granted it but should be frail in exchange.

I don't believe this at all, not with the scale of which elemental ATK gets to, I'd believe this if people were getting to 120-130 elemental ATK for a cost, in which case I consider this to still be very high damage, right now it is getting to an astonishing level, a level that should be drastically pulled back because it has gone way too far.

Plus the aforementioned effects do not exclusively relate to frailness either, you still have plenty of avenues in which to obtain bulk, there are plenty of class DRs and the other 160-180 stat points you have left to invest into defensives with. If I recall, my impure element fire Monk with Volcanic Seed and Setting Sun juiced up to the max still had like 50% magic DR and 215 evade, with access to blotch too. All while having roughly 150 fire ATK.

Luminary Element is fine mostly because to reach those big numbers you need to trade away a lot of things that'd make your build well-rounded, for no more than like 60-62 Scaled WIL as you maxcap it. It's the same debacle as Undeniable Innovator, but you have more control over how much you're losing out on other stats, for building damage instead. I'd not touch this whatsoever, it's the most unique and self-balancing trait we have in the game right now.

Impure Element? You bet it needs a bap of some sort. At the very least, making it not work with self-inflicted damage for a starter. If this gets changed, I believe it'd be more than fine to have it be higher, even. Like 2x your Void Energy, since it'll be extremely unreliable to use this way.

A hard cap to elemental attack? I dunno, man. I'm on the fence, but leaning more on 'why bother'. Not many liked when I wanted Hit to be capped, which could definitely even fix problems with Bard's dances making dodge a hard counter to it, but it is what it is.

Luminary Element is not my sole focus as I said in the original post, I believe that the problem lies in how high we are allowed to stack elemental ATKs to begin with, it is fun to attribute your character towards a certain elemental ATK and I don't wish for this feeling to be denied, but I have pointed out that these two offenders, Luminary Element and Impure Element, are the majority of support towards achieving ridiculous numbers, they should assist you, not rank you above literally everyone else.

If solely Impure element got bapped you'd still see people achieve some ridiculous numbers but you'd see it far less I admit, I will point out that between Luminary and Impure Element, Impure Element is the much bigger offender here as it doesn't come with a stat cost, just an item that synergizes with you via self damage, I'd like to see the self damage interaction go potentially.

I never said that I wanted for Elemental ATK to get a hard cap though, I said I think it should be soft capped more similarly to how stats get soft capped at the current moment, in this way if you got over say 100 scaled elemental ATK, it'd start scaling down gradually, probably with the intention that you'd start to see 200 elemental ATK turn into 140-150 scaled elemental ATK, this does matter a lot.

---

I tend to see in the case of luminary element that its balanced by locked equipment choices, such as those that only give you +WIL, what I will mention is that almost none of the options that give you +WIL have ever been a bad build choice, nor are you strictly locked into these options either, as I am sure that you can replace the 4 WIL from Priest Robe with a more suitable torso, or the 3-4 WIL you get from your shoes.

You are NOT locked into these options, it is just the path of the most achievable damage which is miniscule compared to the grander picture.

I don't think I have to convince anyone that Impure Element is just unhealthy for the game, it has been shown to have been unhealthy ever since VA's original rework, and hasn't really ever had an iteration where I haven't considered unhealthy, this skill should be completely reworked if not changed to stop working with self-damage, I hardly believe anyone will dispute that either but I could be wrong.

But above all else, you could prevent it from becoming a problem for the future by just introducing soft-caps for the elemental ATKs, we already have Verglases able to achieve over 120-130 ice ATK just on their own, you have races like Chimera that get +5 all elemental ATK for existing, you have Umbral which scales it's dark atk obscenely high.

It becomes a problem over 120-130 elemental ATK imo, it becomes a very very real problem.

In conclusion I still do not see why elemental ATK should be allowed to exceed a certain threshold and I am not convinced at all by any of these arguments so far, it is simply unfun to have to play against in most cases.

[Rendar]

Impure Element has needed to die for a long, long time.

Elemental Attack Stacking has as well. Personally speaking, Luminary Element should just be changed to thus.

WIL now boosts your starsign's Elemental Attack as if your scaled WIL was that stat (So 60 WIL = 60 Lightning Attack for a Lightning Starsign). Furthermore, it no longer reduces the +1 per 4 wil. So having 60 scaled will is actually 75 lightning attack. This is moreeeee than fine.

[Sawrock]

Impure Element has needed to die for a long, long time.

Elemental Attack Stacking has as well. Personally speaking, Luminary Element should just be changed to thus.

WIL now boosts your starsign's Elemental Attack as if your scaled WIL was that stat (So 60 WIL = 60 Lightning Attack for a Lightning Starsign). Furthermore, it no longer reduces the +1 per 4 wil. So having 60 scaled will is actually 75 lightning attack. This is moreeeee than fine.

Apologies if I'm reading this wrong- please correct me if so. But wouldn't your suggestion be a discount compared to how it currently works?

The math I'm using would be using Meiaquarise as the race, with Kash Ic. Having 70 WIL gives 60 scaled WIL. With how it works right now, you'd need 75 unscaled WIL, leading to a five-point discount.

At lower stat points this still takes effect; having 51 WIL gives 50 scaled WIL. With the current Luminary Element, you'd have 51 elemental attack, but with your suggestion you'd have 62.

Basically, at almost all stat levels it'd be a boost for it to change in such a way.

[Rendar]

Impure Element has needed to die for a long, long time.

Elemental Attack Stacking has as well. Personally speaking, Luminary Element should just be changed to thus.

WIL now boosts your starsign's Elemental Attack as if your scaled WIL was that stat (So 60 WIL = 60 Lightning Attack for a Lightning Starsign). Furthermore, it no longer reduces the +1 per 4 wil. So having 60 scaled will is actually 75 lightning attack. This is moreeeee than fine.

Apologies if I'm reading this wrong- please correct me if so. But wouldn't your suggestion be a discount compared to how it currently works?

The math I'm using would be using Meiaquarise as the race, with Kash Ic. Having 70 WIL gives 60 scaled WIL. With how it works right now, you'd need 75 unscaled WIL, leading to a five-point discount.

At lower stat points this still takes effect; having 51 WIL gives 50 scaled WIL. With the current Luminary Element, you'd have 51 elemental attack, but with your suggestion you'd have 62.

Basically, at almost all stat levels it'd be a boost for it to change in such a way.

"At almost all stat levels" isn't the problem. 70 WIL giving 60 scaled will would give you 75 ele attack, in this instance. Which is a normal amount of elemental attack. A fine elemental attack, even.

The problem as it is right now is the extremes. People hard-dumping so much WIL that they have 110 unscaled WIL (which is.. like 64 scaled WIL).. but that 110 unscaled WIL is now 110 Elemental Attack.  And if they chug WIL pots, they get an extra +50% or so.. etc etc etc.

I explained it in DMs, bcz I don't wanna out Lolzy's like. Build. But they have 133 unscaled WIL (69.7 scaled).. and 235 Lightning Attack. Utilizing this EXACT scenario situation, they would lose 133 Lightning attack (Putting them at 102 Lightning Attack. Which is nutty without any stat investment but I'm Not Going To Talk About That Right Now). They would get 69 Lightning Attack from the SCALED WIL. Then 17 Lightning attack from 68 Scaled WIL (1 ele attack per 4). Which would turn that into... 86 lightning attack instead of.. 133.


In extreme cases, this is chunking a LOT of elemental attack. In Not-So-Extreme cases, it allows a character concept to flourish like.. A Dark Bard that doesn't want to build Strength for Fire Attack can now instead build WIL.