[Revy]

For all of the people hammering on the GM team for not providing complete logs of the entire situation, I think it's also important to note that not a single one of the ban appeals really shows any kind of contrition. In fact, some of them even go as far as throwing other members of the community under the bus.

Using excuses such as:
-The GMs were in the Discord and should have put a stop to it. (Already covered in Balthie's previous post.)
-Another ground (Hearth) was doing the same or worse.

Tells me that they either still don't understand their behavior was wrong or worse, simply don't care. It makes me think the bans should be extended until they've at least proven they won't be participating in the same behavior that got them banned initially.

It's also concerning to see the amount of people who say they have no idea what's really happening because of a lack of evidence while simultaneously saying the banned users are innocent. You can't have it both ways.

Welp, got home to start formulating my own response to see this upon refreshing the page, so thought I'd immediately respond to this first.
It's concerning to see some people proposing such and trying to defend the verdict while ignoring the big picture. There was no communication on things bar some vague stuff after. You can't tell me in all good faith that punishing people for speaking their mind on things is in any way appropriate. Hell. The issue is that the "same behaviour that got them banned initially" wasn't clearly communicated beforehand. It was just straight in the cop car, no ifs or buts, no trial, nothing. Hard to "show any kind of contrition" when people believe they're innocent (and in many's eyes, are) On the subject of "another ground was doing the same or worse," when you get (unjustly in my opinion at least to a certain level) punished for something you see others doing/the other side potentially doing, it's pretty natural to go "But that guy's doing the exact same! Why isn't he being bundled into this cop car too?!". It's concerning that some feel the need to harass or belittle people for raising concerns. Be it about how they were treated, or for saying "Hang on a moment, something about this verdict doesn't seem right."

I know it won't mean too much in the grand scheme of things, as the verdict has been made, but I personally believe that the way this has been handled is at best completely wrong. As Appo pointed out, where was the course correction if those responsible want to stand by their verdict? If this stuff was going on for months as has been stated, then why not nip it in the bud and go "Ey, mate, y'might wanna tone your behaviour down a tad or we're gonna have to step in."

If it is as Kunai supposed in the other thread, that it was Croakie being the main target of the ban wave and others being caught in the crossfire for daring to be associated? That's absolutely unacceptable in my opinion. As is the petty behaviour of 4*'ing the unban threads, honestly, no matter who did it. The fact that nothing of your findings is released to 'protect' people is fine enough, but what about when people abuse that in order to get someone they don't like banned? Not giving the other side the ability to even defend themselves and reach the truth means that someone could well get away with the self-same charges that people're being accused of. Not necessarily saying this IS the case. The Hearth could be innocent, the other Don could be innocent. I don't know. I don't want to think that people would be so petty or biased, but it's hard not to have those kinds of thoughts.

[Plunger]

Welp, got home to start formulating my own response to see this upon refreshing the page, so thought I'd immediately respond to this first.
It's concerning to see some people proposing such and trying to defend the verdict while ignoring the big picture. There was no communication on things bar some vague stuff after. You can't tell me in all good faith that punishing people for speaking their mind on things is in any way appropriate. Hell. The issue is that the "same behaviour that got them banned initially" wasn't clearly communicated beforehand. It was just straight in the cop car, no ifs or buts, no trial, nothing. Hard to "show any kind of contrition" when people believe they're innocent (and in many's eyes, are) On the subject of "another ground was doing the same or worse," when you get (unjustly in my opinion at least to a certain level) punished for something you see others doing/the other side potentially doing, it's pretty natural to go "But that guy's doing the exact same! Why isn't he being bundled into this cop car too?!". It's concerning that some feel the need to harass or belittle people for raising concerns. Be it about how they were treated, or for saying "Hang on a moment, something about this verdict doesn't seem right."

There is a difference between them 'speaking their minds' and completely denying any action on their part only to claim that others '[do] all of that to a much higher degree' than them when the a GM reply was posted. I would call it disingenuous at best. 

Welp, got home to start formulating my own response to see this upon refreshing the page, so thought I'd immediately respond to this first.
It's concerning to see some people proposing such and trying to defend the verdict while ignoring the big picture. There was no communication on things bar some vague stuff after. You can't tell me in all good faith that punishing people for speaking their mind on things is in any way appropriate. Hell. The issue is that the "same behaviour that got them banned initially" wasn't clearly communicated beforehand. It was just straight in the cop car, no ifs or buts, no trial, nothing. Hard to "show any kind of contrition" when people believe they're innocent (and in many's eyes, are) On the subject of "another ground was doing the same or worse," when you get (unjustly in my opinion at least to a certain level) punished for something you see others doing/the other side potentially doing, it's pretty natural to go "But that guy's doing the exact same! Why isn't he being bundled into this cop car too?!". It's concerning that some feel the need to harass or belittle people for raising concerns. Be it about how they were treated, or for saying "Hang on a moment, something about this verdict doesn't seem right."

I know it won't mean too much in the grand scheme of things, as the verdict has been made, but I personally believe that the way this has been handled is at best completely wrong. As Appo pointed out, where was the course correction if those responsible want to stand by their verdict? If this stuff was going on for months as has been stated, then why not nip it in the bud and go "Ey, mate, y'might wanna tone your behaviour down a tad or we're gonna have to step in."

I think most people involved here are adults, some degree of personal accountability should be expected. Excuses that the GMs should have stopped it if it was bad or that others are even worse don't hold very much water to me. The same excuses were leveled in the last community thread and seeing them getting posted again is disappointing. 

People are free to question the GMs as much as they want, just like I'm free to point out that there hasn't been a single admitance of guilt without a concession or pointing of the finger.

[Shadbase]

The same excuses were leveled in the last community thread and seeing them getting posted again is disappointing.

I'm very disappointed too. Maybe this time the GMs will actually listen and start doing it, right? Maybe start building some level of trust with people instead of being harbingers of fear and random unexplained bans, outside of a Tumblr-tier callout post.

Seriously. You have points, but you read like you're just here to argue - and regardless of Wiki status, your account creation time and post count reads the exact same.
I don't have to show proof you did it just for that! But the evidence is clearly right there and explained, so now I don't have to do anything. You're in the wrong, and I'm right regardless of what you could say against me, yea? /s

[Balor]

It's been three years and some change since I stumbled upon SL2.  Joining it in order to RP with old and close friends who had all ventured to join it. I post this to offer a preface to what will be a moderately lengthy post. I preface it with my length of time on the game to show that it's not long at all compared to you lot.

I was harassed within six months of playing, whether I brought it upon myself, or was the victim of a random act of violence I neither recall nor know. This was a choice of my own to leave it unreported or bothered, these people for a time were friends and wonderful writers, the fact that I was mistreated by them came as a shock to me. Or that they'd then mistreat others around me, new players and friends.

The year later for reasons I am aware of more candidly and clearly, I was slandered, my DM's shared about by individuals who I've since forgiven and found friends in. But for a year I was made to be unwanted, undesirable. I was the object of persecution, hatred, and misconception. But I am not innocent, I lashed back at GM's. I have in the sanctity of my own private hovels and homes spoken in volatile terms. Spewed in my own echo chambers my undiluted anger about my situation.

I bounced off the walls of my discontent until I turned around and continued to be unabashedly me, and continue to do so. People don't like me at times for it, some do. They have that right, however when people met me and learned who I was without pretense. They got to make that decision for themselves. But I spent a year building myself back up, I spent a year going from undesirable, to undeniable.

Even then I have had my name slandered, harassed. I've been labeled a psychopath in private chats, a drama monger, an abuser, manipulator, a toxic entity. Some of this happening as recently as October of last year. I don't make a fuss about most of it, because it doesn't really matter. I can go play better games, spend time with better people, I don't owe the community of SL2 my time.

But since then I've learned how often it is that others go through the same "hazing" ritual I go through, not via the same people who once upon a time harmed me, but through others. The spite that runs deep within the veins of the community. Spoken in hushed whispers or in explosive and outspoken posts on the forums such as this. 

I've watched friends depart the game because of problem children being allowed to exist, I've watched my wife's personal information be shared without her consent, I've watched the very worst this community is capable of. I have been what the community is capable of, in silent private angst and frustration. I have been it in the arena, or in your RP.  For all of the things I have been struck by, I am not innocent. Not wholly.

I am a human being, with opinions, feelings and beliefs. Ideals that I hold core to my person, I am earnest, I am spiteful, I am a stranger, a friend, I am all these things and more.

But what I am not, is banned.  What I am not, is accountable for the community. What I am not is the system that's gotten us here. And if people want it to improve, then they have to be open to the consequences that come with it. What I am not, is alone among the staff and community in wanting something better. What I am not, is unaware that all of the issues brought up in the ban appeals, notices, and opinion pieces; Are old and recurring problems. 

We will be talking about this ban for the next week or so, and we'll treat it like the end of the world. It isn't.  For all the valid complaints about it, they aren't ones that haven't been made before, nor are the reason our friends were banned alien to the community as a whole. Regardless of guilt, or innocence. We've all been here before.

I vocalize all of this, and sit on my little island of neutrality not because I don't agree or care. But because I can't be angry about it, I can't be troubled by the vast ocean of emotions that will be rolling out for as long as the community is upset about it. Because as I've stated here, things aren't always that good here. I am not always happy within the community for many reasons. 

So after all of this venting and splurging you must ask "What's the point Drezdin?" 

The point is that I wanted it off my chest, I wished to scream into the void. But to set an example, I have screamed into the void. I have gotten this chip off my shoulder for the time being and confessed in verbose terms that my time in SL2 hasn't been that great overall. So now I can only ask of you. Rather than us being mad or argumentative with one another, how would we go about improving things? 

What would you ask of Dev with any coming changes to the policing of the game? What examples of better systems could we learn from? What blueprints have worked in the past?

[Kyratio]

It's been three years and some change since I stumbled upon SL2.  Joining it in order to RP with old and close friends who had all ventured to join it. I post this to offer a preface to what will be a moderately lengthy post. I preface it with my length of time on the game to show that it's not long at all compared to you lot.

I was harassed within six months of playing, whether I brought it upon myself, or was the victim of a random act of violence I neither recall nor know. This was a choice of my own to leave it unreported or bothered, these people for a time were friends and wonderful writers, the fact that I was mistreated by them came as a shock to me. Or that they'd then mistreat others around me, new players and friends.

The year later for reasons I am aware of more candidly and clearly, I was slandered, my DM's shared about by individuals who I've since forgiven and found friends in. But for a year I was made to be unwanted, undesirable. I was the object of persecution, hatred, and misconception. But I am not innocent, I lashed back at GM's. I have in the sanctity of my own private hovels and homes spoken in volatile terms. Spewed in my own echo chambers my undiluted anger about my situation.

I bounced off the walls of my discontent until I turned around and continued to be unabashedly me, and continue to do so. People don't like me at times for it, some do. They have that right, however when people met me and learned who I was without pretense. They got to make that decision for themselves. But I spent a year building myself back up, I spent a year going from undesirable, to undeniable.

Even then I have had my name slandered, harassed. I've been labeled a psychopath in private chats, a drama monger, an abuser, manipulator, a toxic entity. Some of this happening as recently as October of last year. I don't make a fuss about most of it, because it doesn't really matter. I can go play better games, spend time with better people, I don't owe the community of SL2 my time.

But since then I've learned how often it is that others go through the same "hazing" ritual I go through, not via the same people who once upon a time harmed me, but through others. The spite that runs deep within the veins of the community. Spoken in hushed whispers or in explosive and outspoken posts on the forums such as this. 

I've watched friends depart the game because of problem children being allowed to exist, I've watched my wife's personal information be shared without her consent, I've watched the very worst this community is capable of. I have been what the community is capable of, in silent private angst and frustration. I have been it in the arena, or in your RP.  For all of the things I have been struck by, I am not innocent. Not wholly.

I am a human being, with opinions, feelings and beliefs. Ideals that I hold core to my person, I am earnest, I am spiteful, I am a stranger, a friend, I am all these things and more.

But what I am not, is banned.  What I am not, is accountable for the community. What I am not is the system that's gotten us here. And if people want it to improve, then they have to be open to the consequences that come with it. What I am not, is alone among the staff and community in wanting something better. What I am not, is unaware that all of the issues brought up in the ban appeals, notices, and opinion pieces; Are old and recurring problems. 

We will be talking about this ban for the next week or so, and we'll treat it like the end of the world. It isn't.  For all the valid complaints about it, they aren't ones that haven't been made before, nor are the reason our friends were banned alien to the community as a whole. Regardless of guilt, or innocence. We've all been here before.

I vocalize all of this, and sit on my little island of neutrality not because I don't agree or care. But because I can't be angry about it, I can't be troubled by the vast ocean of emotions that will be rolling out for as long as the community is upset about it. Because as I've stated here, things aren't always that good here. I am not always happy within the community for many reasons. 

So after all of this venting and splurging you must ask "What's the point Drezdin?" 

The point is that I wanted it off my chest, I wished to scream into the void. But to set an example, I have screamed into the void. I have gotten this chip off my shoulder for the time being and confessed in verbose terms that my time in SL2 hasn't been that great overall. So now I can only ask of you. Rather than us being mad or argumentative with one another, how would we go about improving things? 

What would you ask of Dev with any coming changes to the policing of the game? What examples of better systems could we learn from? What blueprints have worked in the past?

There's a lot of things I want to ask of Dev, a lot of things I would say to Dev, but if I'm honest, that's not the point of this discussion at all. Dev is a person just like all of us, with flaws, lack of motivation at times and feelings. There's a reason why most people here are spouting towards both sides rather equally. This needs to be a community effort. Dev might be able to swoop in with some rules or changes that may outwardly fix the issue, it may improve on the issue, it may even fix most of the issue but in the end, this is a community issue. Not a ruling issue, and it will still be an issue unless the community itself fixes it. All the admins, Dev, the leaders of each nation, the people who play G6, everyone. If you're involved in this game, you can help fix it.

[Revy]

Regarding the fact they know what discord this is, I can only presume it would be a discord centered around the Yakuza, which to my knowledge operates specifically under the Donna. I don't think when a discord was made it would have ever been under the pretense, "oh, who do we NOT invite?" but rather "who's part of the Yakuza by affliation?"

Once again, in telling others not to make assumptions, I believe you are making assumptions of your own about the context in the situation. For all we know, the absence of someone in this discord was no concerted effort to keep them out. Perhaps they never actually asked for an invite. Or perhaps they asked one person from the group, and only that one person told them no.

Right, full disclosure, I'm in the Yakuza server in question, and to my knowledge, the Don never asked to join. No one was trying to keep him out. There was never a "Who do we not invite", it was a "Who's part of the Yakuza/who WILL be part of it" kind of deal. Hell, he lurks in the casino discord, so... He's not out of any and every server related to Meiaquar?

Plunger

I think most people involved here are adults, some degree of personal accountability should be expected. Excuses that the GMs should have stopped it if it was bad or that others are even worse don't hold very much water to me. The same excuses were leveled in the last community thread and seeing them getting posted again is disappointing. 

People are free to question the GMs as much as they want, just like I'm free to point out that there hasn't been a single admitance of guilt without a concession or pointing of the finger.

Then I'm free to point out that again. As I said, they and others, including me, believe some of the accused are innocent of all charges. Forgive me for saying this if this is mindblowing to you, but people should not have to admit to crimes they did not do. Or that they believe they did not do. On top of that, it sounds to me like you wouldn't even listen to what the accused has to say in regards to what evidence they may give to defend themselves or point out the truth anyway. Shadbase puts it well. It seems like all you're here to do is pour more gas on the fire.

And to respond to another part of that. Indeed, most of us are adults. But I don't feel like there's been enough accountability shown on the side of the GMs involved in this. It's just been a case of "Well, this is our verdict, love it or hate it, nothing will change it, not even any evidence you may give us to show your innocence or prove that another has done the same crimes/worse".

[Plunger]

The same excuses were leveled in the last community thread and seeing them getting posted again is disappointing.

I'm very disappointed too. Maybe this time the GMs will actually listen and start doing it, right? Maybe start building some level of trust with people instead of being harbingers of fear and random unexplained bans, outside of a Tumblr-tier callout post.

Seriously. You have points, but you read like you're just here to argue - and regardless of Wiki status, your account creation time and post count reads the exact same.
I don't have to show proof you did it just for that! But the evidence is clearly right there and explained, so now I don't have to do anything. You're in the wrong, and I'm right regardless of what you could say against me, yea? /s

I'm not sure these types of personal attacks are productive and looking up all of my account details just to make this reply is concerning behavior, sarcastic tag or not.

[WaifuApple]

Personally, if I were to look towards things I'd like to see change is for it to be clearly set out what rights you have to defend yourself against the verdict of a GM you believe is unjust. That's one of the big question marks I've always had. If a GM says you've done something worth getting banned for, and you don't believe you have, what, exactly, do you do in that situation? The unban forums specifically tell you not to go there without guilt or with excuse, which I see as pushing people away from the idea that they are even ALLOWED to have a case to begin with. You either have to say "I know exactly what I've done wrong and will take steps to remedy it" or you're simply out of luck. Clearly it feels like people don't actually know what the PROPER steps for challenging things are, and will take to slightly different methods every time. Usually this ends in people making noise- lots, and lots of noise.

The unban forums also says "the GMs are under no obligation to explain anything to you", so it is rooted in the system itself that any kind of communication at all is a mercy, and that's either a terrible shame, or something that should be written differently if not. They are only 'encouraged' to communicate. You rely SOLELY on the goodwill of the staff to be heard, if you go by the wording of the forums. It is by no standards ideal that we work to a system where communication from GMs is optional if communication from players is demanded.

The reason the same points come up again, and again, is because nothing has really changed. We've reached a bit of time down the line and we're still in the same place, with the same criticisms. Nothing is being done any different.

If things can't change in terms of GM communication in this span of time, a change spanning community wide is not that disappointing to find hasn't happened yet, either. There are a lot more players than GMs and change like that would surely be even slower, if you're expecting it. I wouldn't expect higher standards for change from the community than our own staff, who are meant to be the best and most rational of us.

[Shadbase]

I'm not sure these types of personal attacks are productive and looking up all of my account details just to make this reply is concerning behavior, sarcastic tag or not.

You do know I can see you have 6 posts (all accounted for in this thread) and made your account last month right from the posts you make, as can everyone else, right?
Regardless, I'd love to hear your opinion on the following question Drezdin asked however, since you seem very apt to help the GMs in whatever way you can. It could be enlightening, since you seem to have this immense grasp on these issues at their core.

What would you ask of Dev with any coming changes to the policing of the game? What examples of better systems could we learn from? What blueprints have worked in the past?

Honestly, I just wish that the GMs had an standardized form that they had to fill out and send to the banned player. Even if it feels corporate and cold, then they can outright state exactly why they're banned to their face without any need for forum drama and speculation on the part of the ban, and maybe even then the GMs. It's basically what most other servers, RP forums, and even some games do. It's not like you still have to name names, but actually pointing out what someone is doing that's wrong specifically is how you get people to learn from their mistakes. If your mom as a kid just randomly grounded you right before bed, and said "you were screaming" when you haven't even screamed in front of her for the last six hours - just maybe at the park earlier in the day or something, you're not going to learn from that.
Just a blanket "you broke these rules, you made your bed now lie in it" isn't going to teach anybody anything. The GMs have never actually been one to actually give advice when it comes to these things either. If you're denied on an idea, you're barely even told why, for example.

SL2 isn't going to benefit from anything like a three-strike system, especially not this late in the game, but there definitely needs to be a warning system that isn't "the GM teleports to your location and hits you, potentially in front of people so you get publically embarassed" too. I'd hope that Dev could code something like that in for people that aren't obvious on who they are in their profile, but otherwise it's really as simple as formulating a DM.

Even with a warning and ban receipt system like that, you don't even have to actually provide proof. But at least then you don't get a mob of concerned players, now all demanding that you actually give them reasons and exact examples of what they did, why that was a bannable offense. Because really, at the core of the issue, that's the actual problem people are rising. If everyone banned knew exactly what they did, I'd bet we'd not even have this thread. Because it meant there was actual communication happening.

[Plunger]

I'm not sure these types of personal attacks are productive and looking up all of my account details just to make this reply is concerning behavior, sarcastic tag or not.

You do know I can see you have 6 posts (all accounted for in this thread) and made your account last month right from the posts you make, as can everyone else, right?
Regardless, I'd love to hear your opinion on the following question Drezdin asked however, since you seem very apt to help the GMs in whatever way you can. It could be enlightening, since you seem to have this immense grasp on these issues at their core.

What would you ask of Dev with any coming changes to the policing of the game? What examples of better systems could we learn from? What blueprints have worked in the past?

Honestly, I just wish that the GMs had an standardized form that they had to fill out and send to the banned player. Even if it feels corporate and cold, then they can outright state exactly why they're banned to their face without any need for forum drama and speculation on the part of the ban, and maybe even then the GMs. It's basically what most other servers, RP forums, and even some games do. It's not like you still have to name names, but actually pointing out what someone is doing that's wrong specifically is how you get people to learn from their mistakes. If your mom as a kid just randomly grounded you right before bed, and said "you were screaming" when you haven't even screamed in front of her for the last six hours - just maybe at the park earlier in the day or something, you're not going to learn from that.
Just a blanket "you broke these rules, you made your bed now lie in it" isn't going to teach anybody anything. The GMs have never actually been one to actually give advice when it comes to these things either. If you're denied on an idea, you're barely even told why, for example.

SL2 isn't going to benefit from anything like a three-strike system, especially not this late in the game, but there definitely needs to be a warning system that isn't "the GM teleports to your location and hits you, potentially in front of people so you get publically embarassed" too. I'd hope that Dev could code something like that in for people that aren't obvious on who they are in their profile, but otherwise it's really as simple as formulating a DM.

Even with a warning and ban receipt system like that, you don't even have to actually provide proof. But at least then you don't get a mob of concerned players, now all demanding that you actually give them reasons and exact examples of what they did, why that was a bannable offense. Because really, at the core of the issue, that's the actual problem people are rising. If everyone banned knew exactly what they did, I'd bet we'd not even have this thread. Because it meant there was actual communication happening.

You also brought up the status of my wiki account as well, not just my forum account. I don't see why you feel the need to take such an insulting and aggressive tone with your posts as well. I haven't been personally attacking you in any of my posts, so I don't see why you feel the need to attack me.

As for suggestions to Dev about changes though? I personally don't see a problem with the way it's currently being handled. In every single community I've either been in as a player or administrator a few things are always done the same:

1. You don't post logs because it can reveal who reported it.
   
2. You don't post logs to protect the dignity of those who were banned.
   
3. You don't post logs to protect those who were initially harrased.
   
4. Not all offenses require warnings. The harrasement rule very clearly states you'll get hit with a ban, as you should. Most people support a zero tolerance bullying policy in real life, why should the game be any different? The warning is the rules, you were warned not to do it when you read them.
   

This is how they've always been handled as far as I know and the only real backlash seems to be that this time the targets of the bans had lots of friends.


If you've been banned and want more information, you should DM the GM team before you make your appeal.