[Latto]

Evasion builds are already incredibly feast or famine while requiring major stat investment. You ideally want to hit and maintain the upper cap of 50 in buffs, with extremely dedicated evade builds often maxing out at around a little under or over 200 depending on race. This ends up being an issue in that very few classes actually give consistent enough evade buffs to hit the 50, which seriously restricts builds (you're basically forced into using a rogue class for most builds if you ever want to hit it for more than 1 or 2 attacks since they're versatile enough to pair with most other classes.)

With changes to things like Windswept Gi being reduced to 15 evade for 1 hit only and many other evade buffs only lasting for X (usually 1) amount of hits (miragewalk, dancer dodge, disengage, etc.) this becomes a serious issue in any sort of teamfight where multiple instances of damage are being hurled your way on top of evasion ignoring skills.

Could things like windswept/mirage walk/dancer's agility be perhaps changed to have their evade instances stack (if you use a wind spell twice, you get 2 dodge buff charges) instead of one? Increasing them to give two dodge charges instead of one would be welcome but that might be too strong in certain situations. Another alternative is to give them lower initial buffs but make them gradually stack higher like Chaos Reflex or Verglas' Hare's Agility.

Also more consistent evasion buffs even if they have to have certain activation requirements (Firebird's Feather Veil or the aforementioned gradually stacking ones like Chaos Reflex) being available to other classes would be nice for build diversity. The windswept gi change actually butchered almost all the alternative janky mage builds I wanted to do.

[Lolzytripd]

Evade is also hit harder by the lack of the +6 stamp than weapons in the more played korvara side of things.

I do think that the evade changes on the experimental server are good for the game and should be pushed through.

[Senna]

For the evade change on the experimental server to be effective, the base evade for all torso needs to be increased or the base accuracy for all weapons except certain range like Tomes to be decreased. The major problem with Evade is the lack of buff options around that can compete with how easy it is for people to reach high Hit. And those who choose the few classes that can reach said buff cap/buff now face another problem; the person just can debuff you once and throw everything out the window.

The experimental changes just make it much easier to hit wall someone since its direct value now. If you do notice, there’s alotta way to increase your hit comparing to increase your evade. Hell, we even had TALENTS that just gives you hit for existing including stuff like GUI.

All the person has to do is put everything into their hit buff once and someone that builds evade effort would be voided.

It’s why most people build tank. If they’re going to get hit regardless of how much evade buff they applying, how much momentum they have to burn to get all those buffs up for someone to debuff or buff hit once and invalid it, they might as well move their CEL into Def/Res and survive the hits better.

And yes, I believe those universal evade options should be higher in value and last for up to 3 attacks instead of just one as well as more classes getting more evade option than just... A small amount lol. Because if one person attacks you or even the person lets their Guardian spirit attacks for them, you can’t avoid the following attacks from everyone else... You might as well find something else to do in the meantime. Especially since those that have to build evade tends to put everything into CEL; so they won’t have any reduction against those.

[Lolzytripd]

For the evade change on the experimental server to be effective, the base evade for all torso needs to be increased or the base accuracy for all weapons except certain range like Tomes to be decreased. The major problem with Evade is the lack of buff options around that can compete with how easy it is for people to reach high Hit. And those who choose the few classes that can reach said buff cap/buff now face another problem; the person just can debuff you once and throw everything out the window.

The experimental changes just make it much easier to hit wall someone since its direct value now. If you do notice, there’s alotta way to increase your hit comparing to increase your evade. Hell, we even had TALENTS that just gives you hit for existing including stuff like GUI.

All the person has to do is put everything into their hit buff once and someone that builds evade effort would be voided.

It’s why most people build tank. If they’re going to get hit regardless of how much evade buff they applying, how much momentum they have to burn to get all those buffs up for someone to debuff or buff hit once and invalid it, they might as well move their CEL into Def/Res and survive the hits better.

And yes, I believe those universal evade options should be higher in value and last for up to 3 attacks instead of just one as well as more classes getting more evade option than just... A small amount lol. Because if one person attacks you or even the person lets their Guardian spirit attacks for them, you can’t avoid the following attacks from everyone else... You might as well find something else to do in the meantime. Especially since those that have to build evade tends to put everything into CEL; so they won’t have any reduction against those.

deep breath...


Gonna say the thing...


Minimum and maximum hit rates should be a thing, clearly you can't accept log curves to accomplish this into your lives, but  something simple like 110-1/2 scaled cel maximum hit rate vs you, and for attackers 0+1/2 scaled skill minimum hit rate


no matter what modifiers these would be hard caps to just how fucked you get.

[firehawk11]

You really need a max and a minimal value for evasion. The thing is if you make evasion good then why would you ever build tanky stats? Why let Cel replace Def/Res? It's one of those odd problems we got in SL2 where evade is almost all or nothing but that's the ultimate problem is once it becomes all and nothings hits then what? Why would you ever chose to build tank when you can dodge almost everything?

[Senna]

The goal is not to be ‘I dodge everything’. The goal is ‘I need a chance to actually dodge something and live for one more turns’. Even in PVE you need to max buff to cap dodge something. It will not replace it as there are existing things in the game that flat out ignore evasion and some of them HITS like literal bus. There are many things in the game where DEF/RES are more than required. That’s not the problem. The problem is the chance in which someone that puts their all into evading for little result vs someone that can put their all into DEF/RES and become a literal doomwall. Even people that half ass it and pad with Guard get much better results than someone that put their entire foot in evading without running certain classes.

[MegaBlues]

The reason evade was considered so much weaker than tanking was because tanking was more reliable, and on average, more powerful. Evade is now more powerful when it works, but because of how powerful it is, no one will make a build which can't hit an evader. So evasion is more powerful but even less reliable.

If evasion was more powerful and more reliable, it would be overpowered, so I suggest decreasing its effectiveness while making it more reliable/accessible.

[Snake]

(Trait) Afterimage: Enemy's maximum hit chance is 90%.

[Senna]

The reason evade was considered so much weaker than tanking was because tanking was more reliable, and on average, more powerful. Evade is now more powerful when it works, but because of how powerful it is, no one will make a build which can't hit an evader. So evasion is more powerful but even less reliable.

If evasion was more powerful and more reliable, it would be overpowered, so I suggest decreasing its effectiveness while making it more reliable/accessible.

I can get behind that. I'd rather it have more accessibility than it does now but decreasing its effectiveness is a OK trade off.

[Autumn]

One of the core issues with Evade right at this moment is that the cap on Evade/Hit creates a perception that you must hit as near to this cap as possible to be remotely close to optimal. Evade is actually incredibly strong, and so people pursue the options that are given to them in order to stack hit rate and move past it in as efficient a way as possible. It isn't exactly as evade users don't deserve this kind of treatment either since the name of their game is denying their opponent damage in it's entirety. Which I am sure anyone who has had questionable hit rates before thinks that that doesn't feel very good, it's not exactly a healthy gameplay experience.

It makes it quite the problem to balance around, making it too good will just be frustrating for classes that already suffer on hit rates, Ghost coming to mind immediately.

Each time Evade balance is touched upon, it does get harder to simply evade things, or simply hit things, shoehorning people into specific setups and limiting metas instead of creating them, this has been a consequence of nerfs being more prominent than buffs mostly.