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+--- Thread: The problem with classes like Aquamancer (/showthread.php?tid=7633)
The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Perdition - 01-20-2021
There's currently an excellently written post in balance fu about Aquamancer's shortcoming as a class, but there is something else I feel needs to be addressed. Now, all of this is more subjective in nature, but it's something I feel strongly about.
I feel like Aquamancer is too specialized.
When I say that, the class as a whole is literally just water magic. It is an entire class dedicated to one type of magic, meaning there is very little room to fluff it or make it 'your own' so to say outside of Dark Authority, which was a welcome addition.
Let me expand on this. When it comes to the large majority of the rest of the classes in the game, they are not nearly as hyper focused on one single theme. Take Hexer for example. This is a class with a lot of dark magic, but it also supports a few different playstyles. You can be a melee focused Hexer with sadistic renewal and bloody karma. You can focus on the utility incantations, you can focus on inflictions and empowering those inflictions with hexes, so it's not really just a one trick pony class like Aquamancer.
Even with Firebird, which has a very strong theme, there's room for flexibility. While it defaults to fire, you can play a different elemental firebird with in-class support for it. The element of firebird's damage changes simply based on your active enchant. You can trigger ignite power with ice tiles as an ice based firebird, or light shafts as a lightning based one. The support for earth and wind is lackluster due to a way to generate these tiles, but the framework is there at the very least. It gives you more agency in regard to making the class feel your own, or mold it into a more fitting thing for your character.
Some people might point out classes that are focused around specific weapons, but even these classes don't feel as 'one trick pony' as Aquamancer. For example, looking at Monk, you have different elemental skills to pick from, which is a recurring theme when it comes to weapon based classes. Ranger and Magic Gunner for example have different elemental arrow skills and magic shells respectively. Even something like Kensei, which takes things a step further and works specifically with a subtype of sword, there are a few different ways to play it given you don't have enough skill points for everything. Some people go for sheathe sword gimmicks, and given you can't feasibly take all of the kensei attack skills, some people pick and choose different ones to trigger Sakki, Touki, etc. There's also elements that further change the way the class is played, even if lightning is currently overbearing due to its effectiveness.
A point of contention that might be brought up in response to this is Priest, but I feel like that class fulfills a needed class fantasy/role in the classic healer. Clerics of some kind are a staple of any RPG. Some tabletop RPGs offer ways to fluff priests with different deities for them to worship, and it would be cool if eventually Priest was allowed something similar in SL2, overall it doesn't feel like... wasted potential I guess, as a promotion.
One of the things I like the most about SL2 is that with the plethora of classes the game has, I can take them and have room to make them fit/work for my character. People are even given leeway to RP weapons as different types of weapons all together. For example, I've seen spears roleplayed as swords and so on. With a class like Aquamancer, however, that simply isn't an option. Aquamancer feels like something that could have easily been compartmentalized and fit into Evoker and Mage as another elemental tree of magic. This would end up making it more damage focused, but when it comes to a support, it doesn't feel like it brings anything new to the table that existing supports don't do infinitely better anyway. This is more of a fault of the Aquamancer skills being very underpowered, but I think it could be pulled off without dedicating an entire promotion to a single element of magic.
The elephant in the room when it comes to this post is Verglas, which is similar in regard to class rigidity. Honestly, everything I've said are also issues I personally have with Verglas, but at the very least it seems like even that class has different ways to go about it with skills that people build around specifically.
All in all, I like SL2 for its fluidity in how you can make classes your own, so I personally would like to avoid another Aquamancer moving forward.
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Sawrock - 01-20-2021
This reasoning is exactly why I won't play Aquamancer, or why I don't play Verglas. You said everything I've been thinking about class rigidity perfectly.
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Neus - 01-21-2021
There are quite a few classes which are very specialized, such as Kensei, Magic Gunner, etc. This is not particularly an issue, nor something new. Not to be dismissive, but to be honest, I feel as though you simply are not interested in water-based characters. Which is fine, not every class is going to appeal to everyone; however I also do not believe it to be a 'problem' to make specialized classes. Anyone who was interested in making a water-based (mage or otherwise) character had very little representation in the existing classes before Aquamancer. Sometimes it is better to group the theme (water magic) into a single source (Aquamancer) rather than exclusively spread them out little by little to every class, as that creates a situation where the spread is so thin that certain character concepts become impossible on its own.
There will likely be another Aquamancer in the future. There will also be more flexible classes; I try to make classes this way as much as I can. However, class design shouldn't break its theme unnecessarily simply to bend over backwards trying to make it relevant to every other class in the game.
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Autumn - 01-21-2021
I like the concept of Aquamancer, I think its pretty thematic to both the intended role and base class, some of the execution and numbers are a bit weak at times, thats really all I can see thats wrong about it, the immobile caster trait leaves much to be desired by a good many of people but eventually is settled into (See: Tactician's rework.)
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Balor - 01-21-2021
I like Aquamancer because it has a strong identity of 'water lads.' There are enough classes that are flexible enough to slot into whatever class combinations you want, in my opinion the more classes with rigid identities will make for a more interesting game. Or if the identities that are present were touched up on. For example DH which doesn't feel like it fulfills it's DMC power fantasy when compared to more recently updated, nerfed, or released classes.
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Perdition - 01-21-2021
For me personally it wasn't that I dislike water magic in particular. In fact with Servant of a Dark Authority, the class can inherently reflect the kind of aesthetic I like, and I use it with Dark Authority on a character I have currently.
My only point was that strong themes (like Kensei, MG) are fine, but those themes generally allowed you more wiggle room within them. ex: MG allows you to pick skills specializing on single shot or multi shot guns, has support for akimbo guns, perks for single shot overshots. Kensei's skills can do different elemental damage, and it even has some items that change the functionality of skills).
I think water magic is fine, but it would be nice, if like dark authority, there was perhaps elemental interaction. Like, being enchanted with fire makes your stuff magma/lava and fire damage or something.
RE: The problem with classes like Aquamancer - Snake - 01-21-2021
My only sigh is less at the 'class theme' and more at 'how it doesn't really seem much 'Curate-y'. They're epic. Offensively. But their crippling lack of solid supporting for their team besides their basic class leaves much more to promise. I do wonder if it's plausible to rebalance it into making you devote to two playstyles that are expected for the class.
A more 'support'-like, and a more 'offensive'-like. As it is now, you're forced into offensive, because if you don't invest in it, the class gives you no other options to play it.
A few examples of what I mean:
A playstyle for Aquamancer that's more focused on filling the map with Water Tiles and spamming Dancing Water to make a 'zoning' area that enemies will not want to get into. This sacrifices any burst damage they have for Immobilize and creating a safe zone that's not necessarily 'sanctuary'.
- Why can't it be done? Tentacles cost 3M so at most you'll let out two per round. Water Tiles don't last enough to get the tentacles working. Tentacles and Wine require Status Infliction. It's more optimal to just spam direct water attacks like Water Dragon and Cold Splash and killing your enemy before they react, since those make your Aquae Crest stack up fast.
A playstyle for Aquamancer that's more focused on upkeeping buffs on your allies and healing them with water.
- Why can't it be done? Because the class's support side is balanced around its insane damage potential. It's not something you choose, it's something you're forced to do due to cooldowns and their damage being too good to be ignored. If for example you could keep using Refreshing Flow and Purifying Aquae for a 50-75 HP heal per use/cleansing debuffs and be forced into becoming a support turret until your FP drops to 0. But why do that when again, you can just kill everything in sight and occasionally throw grafts?
And this is just what I can come up for now. But I'm sure some people would like Aquamancer to explain itself why it is in Curate instead of Mage, when the class's weakest points are its supportive potential.