Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Printable Version +- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums) +-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Forum: Suggestions (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7) +--- Thread: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) (/showthread.php?tid=7621) Pages:
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Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Autumn - 01-15-2021 Its no doubt that currently the most dated class in the game is Arbalest, there are a number of problems that the class has as a whole, whether perceived as weaknesses or issues is a case to case basis, but the class doesn't really serve the fantasy it tries to go for at the moment, due to a lot of previous nerfs and quite frankly just it being outdated as hell. What I see Arbalest as is that its supposed to be the immobile artillery of the fight, it wouldn't be able to move on its own very well, nor should it ever want to move, in exchange for this low mobility and likely a lack of utility it would have:
Most of this is already in Arbalest, save for high durability given that Heavy Wall is kind of outdated by now and could probably be reworked into a passive instead.I would like to go over Arbalest's skills that have a decent amount of power first here:
Thats about all that arbalest has, it has great innates that fuel its damage but those tend to be unnoticeable at times, next I'll list some skills that fall flat, and/or have been over-nerfed mostly by pure coincidence:
That about covers what the class is currently, as for the things I'd like to see from a rework if it were to be considered would be:
RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Trexmaster - 02-01-2021 Arbalest is in dire need of a touch up given how long it's been since anything on it has been adjusted while so many other things in the game have changed drastically around it. Outside of Buster Cannon (since Oil Chain got the nerf it deserved with the cinder changes) Arbalest has very little going for it compared to its alternative for a Bow user--Ranger. Yet Buster Cannon alone makes Arbalest worth using due to how insanely potent it is. A class should likely have a greater identity than one skill. Everything else in Arbalest is some unseen power modifiers and buffs you're rarely going to waste the momentum putting up anymore due to how painfully inefficient they are unless you really need that extra 4-5% hit you'll get from Deadly Aim raising your almost definitely soft-capped SKI. Rather than ramble aimlessly about Arbalest I'll judge the entire class as a whole to drive the point home that Arbalest in the current meta is Buster Cannon with some extra power for bows. ---------------- Straight (into the trash) Cannon -
Blowback Cannon -
Buster Cannon (AKA Arbalest) -
Oil Chain -
Chained Boomerang -
Heavy Tackle -
Mighty Wall -
Both you and your opponent deal roughly 200 damage unmitigated, resulting in roughly 140 damage after your respective defenses per attack. In a vacuum where you're both just wailing on each other with your full 7m each round, this means lethal comes in 8 attacks assuming nothing changes the damage. In the optimal scenario for Mighty Wall where you're faster, this is what it'd look like Quote:R1 I don't really need to math out what happens if you're slower. You lose an entire duration of effectiveness on the skill against anyone who goes before you, and for a skill with only 3 rounds of duration this makes it borderline useless if you don't have the initiative advantage on your opponent(s). Verdict: Use if you for some reason don't soft-cap your defenses and/or are facing multiple enemies that want to damage you. Beyond soft-capped defenses this skill's usefulness drastically decreases due to stat scaling. Situational, odds are you'll never want to use it over putting pressure on the enemy via Cannons or simply attacking at a range. Deadly Aim:
Reload Accel -
-------------- From here we get into the passive and innate skills of Arbalest that, odds are, most people have by default because they're either mandatory or there's no reason not to grab it. Violent Reaction - 1 point passive, Further increases Oil Chain's base damage by your Scaled STR, effectively making its damage 200% Scaled STR + Fire ATK modifiers. Mandatory if you use Oil Chain. Takes a skill slot. Special Armament - 2 point innate that reduces the battle weight of your subweapon. Borderline mandatory if you want to use a sword/axe/spear for an SA. At 2 points reduces the reload time from 4 rounds to 3--essentially making this a must pick if you ever want to use cannon skills. Accelerant - 3 point innate that increases the duration of Oil Chain tiles by 1 round per point, up to +3 rounds. Mandatory if you actually use Oil Chain. Control Inertia - 3 point innate that increases the range of Cannon skills by 1 tile per point, up to +3 range. Borderline mandatory if you want to use a cannon skill, as it's minimal investment for a lot of power in being able to hit with cannons further away. Punching Shot - 5 point innate, allows Bow weapons to ignore Rank*2 armor. Borderline mandatory. You can live without the +10 damage but odds are very little in Arbalest will be worth losing the points in this. Honed Shot - Obligatory +5(6) stat innate. Boosts SKI by Rank*1, gaining an additional SKI at Rank 5 for +6 SKI total. Borderline mandatory to supplement stat budgeting for Arbalests. Heavy Bow Mastery - 5 point innate. Boosts the damage of bows with a Weight of at least 20 by Rank*2, and decreases their Battle Weight by Rank*1. Borderline mandatory. A straight damage increase for minimal investment. ----------------------------------- All in all, Arbalest has a grand total of 66 skill points to invest to max out everything possible. Taking away the questionably worth skills (Straight Cannon, Chained Boomerang, Deadly Aim, Mighty Wall, Reload Accel) this leaves 43 skill points to max out what's left, meaning non-destiny is forced to take away 8 points from this for their final build. Odds are, these 8 points are going to get docked from Oil Chain and Accelerant, leaving Violent Reaction to be useless--thus freeing the point to be spent on a 1 dump wonder on something like Reload Accel for its situational use. This leaves the only active skills most Arbalests have from Arbalest as Heavy Tackle, Blowback Cannon, and Buster Cannon with a potential Reload Accel tossed in. The rest is just various bonuses that all always apply given you're using a 20 weight bow. Without another class supplementing it, all the Arbalest is going to do is spam its Archer skills or basic you to death. TL;DR: The problem with Arbalest is that it's fundamentally boring given how Buster Cannon is the only reason it's even viable. ------------------------------------------------- As to how to fix the issues with Arbalest? At the very least, modernizing its skills to suit GR would be a good start. Such as converting Mighty Wall to be something like 5% Phys/Mag DEF at max rank and changing Deadly Aim to be a Hit bonus rather than raw SKI. The only problem is working around Buster Cannon. It's so overloaded yet integral to the class as it stands. A possible solution I can think of to retain its identity while bringing it down a notch is to convert its debuff to act like a pseudo-Burn and negate DEF buffs and additionally apply a flat negative to Phys DR rather than a total removal of it. All I know for sure is that if anything in Arbalest is going to be changed for the better, Buster Cannon would have to be changed in some way lest the class be horribly over tuned. RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - alyssiaerend - 02-02-2021 Maybe also plan some of the passive skills to use lesser skill points so we can see more use of chain oil RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Snake - 02-03-2021 I wish Arbalest had more emphasis on physical durability and being immovable, because that's the only power fantasy that's embedded into the class's theme that I can't live without Black Knight as a crutch. Their offensive naturally is OP enough thanks to Buster Cannon anyway, and how bows have such an absurd hit rate. I just wanna be that guy with a huge bow who takes a sword strike to the gut, it leaves a mark on their plating, then he points that unorthodox BIG weapon your way, throws a wink then BAM. Only your smoking ankles and boots are left on the ground. It's what I'd imagine from an Arbalest's theme. RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Autumn - 02-03-2021 (02-03-2021, 06:33 PM)Snake Wrote: I wish Arbalest had more emphasis on physical durability and being immovable, because that's the only power fantasy that's embedded into the class's theme that I can't live without Black Knight as a crutch. One of the core identities of Bows are their hit and critical rate so I wouldn't want that to disappear much, I do generally agree with many of the points in this thread that if Arbalest does see a rework, Buster Cannon needs to be toned down pretty harshly, while hopefully still keeping its core mechanic which is busting tanks as the tin says. I also agree that an arbalest should be another one of those physically bulky classes, as long as nothing like Stalemate sneaks its way into the class I don't forsee it overshadowing Black Knight quite as much either, some way to just make themselves completely immovable is also a very good idea, hell I'd even argue a passive to do it is actually not even a bad idea. RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Slydria - 02-03-2021 I think some of the things I'd like to see in a Arbalest Rework are: - Compatibility with Guns. Let me strap a cannon to my gun, please. (Cannon Skills should be condensed to 1 Round Gun attacks if so though, for obvious reasons. Perhaps not allowing Handguns to be valid due to their smaller size.) - Changing the damage bonus of Cannon Skills to instead be based on a portion of your Armament's SWA. (A low amount for Buster Cannon, a moderate amount for Blowback Cannon and a high amount for Straight Cannon.) - Buster Cannon's DEF power being halved vs players, like how it is vs bosses. Changing the Rank values to be less steep so the Spirit for Buster Cannon isn't as powerful. (It makes the 100% reduction into 150% reduction which is massive in a boss fight.) - Blowback Cannon's stun chance being retooled into a status infliction check, with Armament's Weight increasing the infliction chance. (So while it's still highly likely with a heavy weapon, there's a defense against it.) - Straight Cannon dealing more damage, able to apply both On Hit and On Critical effects on the Armament and having AoE capability. (e.g. Say it hits all enemies in the drawn line rather than just the end point) - Rethinking the Reloading mechanic. I think it is a tad too punishing and discourages use of your Armament for non-Cannon applications, multiple Cannon Skills, auxiliary skills like Chained Boomerang and even Chain Skills since you can only really fire the Cannon so often. (It also makes coming up with new potential Cannon Skills difficult as they have to compete with Buster Cannon or just not get picked.) Perhaps removing the mechanic entirely and making Cannon Skills instead have independent cooldowns would be better. - More reasons to use the Armament itself. Such as buffing Chained Boomerang to hit multiple enemies in a Circle (2) area at the location. Changing Heavy Tackle into Heavy Swing and having it incorporate SWA, much like the Board Shaker change. - A second look at Chains, how they should work, should there be more Chain Skills and if there should be skills like Violent Reaction and Accelerant nowadays rather than just be apart of Oil Chain itself. - Condensing SP costs on some of the skills. (e.g. Oil Chain, Deadly Aim, Mighty Wall, Punching Shot, Heavy Bow Mastery.) RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Snake - 02-04-2021 I almost forgot but, the fact they need 'two hands' remove the ability of using a Shield. What if they could launch Shields too? Shields are de-facto what bulky people will want to use and if Arbalest is going to be a 'tanky' class, it should also support shields. Maybe Shields could be considered an armament of static points. Not as effective as an actual weapon, but using cannon skills with it are possible? RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Autumn - 10-14-2021 I'd still like to keep this relevant since there are some really great ideas in this thread, and it details just exactly what is outdated about this class. RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Lolzytripd - 10-15-2021 I think any sort of rework to arbalest should probably involve your subweapon landing on the tile targeted, with a chain connecting it to you, with Reload options on how to interact with it. Tackle Reload> replaces heavy tackle> you move towards the subweapon, reloading your weapon, knocking back or away anyone in your way. Rip reload> replaces normal reload> you pull the chain back violently, performing a basic attack with the subweapon on every target Over the weapon or a chain tile. Chained boomerang> Only usable with a on the field sub weapon, swinging the weapon to another tile, attacking any enemy on it with the weapon, and inflicting blunt damage + knockdown infliction on anyone who the chain would pass through. Anyone who passes the infliction gains airborne (jump rope) Enemies and allies would be able to kick the subweapon or walk over knocking it in a direction similar to kicking a hot potato'd dagger. RE: Arbalest Rework (And things I'd like to see from it) - Shujin - 10-18-2021 I'd probably also like to see a passive or two that works around "If you weren't moved and didn't move yourself." Or a skill even that can only be used if you remained stationary. else basically all has been said. |