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+--- Thread: [Kensei Rework] (/showthread.php?tid=55)
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[Kensei Rework] - Miller - 11-12-2014
Since there's been a bunch of complaints about Dodge in general. The main point always ends up with 'Kensei Passives', which are quite ridiculous but they're actually required since Kensei has no other good skills/passives to throw points in. Aside from Absolute Death/Fear which the former has been nerfed to a reasonable amount. Kensei skills are by no means good or decent, or at least most of them aren't. Scaling off of 75% of STR with a relatively high FP cost for melee, which is somewhat offset by the FP regen and FP usage for using two skills.
tl dr; Kensei Passives are a bit too good, while everything that does damage. (Not counting AD) Are laughably weak and no one uses most of them.
Proposed Rework of Skills #1
Lower Base Momentum cost to 3 for skills that don't have a special effect other than range. (2 with Katana)
Wazabane is considered an effect skill so it's base momentum is 4.
Proposed Rework of Skills #2
Raise to full STR scaling for all skills.
Or leave out effect skills for this as well.
Proposed Rework of Skills #3
Add more momentum when critting with a Kensei skill. (Could be an extra passive)
As for Passives; I'm not entirely sure how to change them according to the skill changes. But honestly; passives are really all a Kensei has and it supports other classes a tad bit too well.
Also, don't turn this into a cesspool of arguments and at least try to keep your point concise.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Jay - 11-12-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=68#p68 Wrote:Miller » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:00 pm[/url]"]I prefer proposal #2 with that recent suggestion below. It lowers the current exploitation of the controversial AD skill. http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=53
Proposed Rework of Skills #2
Raise to full STR scaling for all skills.
Or leave out effect skills for this as well.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=68#p68 Wrote:Miller » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:00 pm[/url]"]I've no clue if the 15% deductions occur before or after boosts. But I believe it is after. Meaning if someone hypothetically boosts to 300 evade (and isn't a kensei), the kensei gains +45 hit passively from a maxed Touki. This itself sounds problematic.
As for Passives; I'm not entirely sure how to change them according to the skill changes. But honestly; passives are really all a Kensei has and it supports other classes a tad bit too well.
- Slydria - 11-12-2014
I do think that the way the Kensei Passives work is problematic... so what if we change the Passive effects of Kenki, Sakki, Touki and Yomidori to flat values instead of percentages?
E.g. -15 Hit instead of -15% Hit.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Rendar - 11-12-2014
It is after all boosts, Jay. So it lowers Hit before it goes against dodge. < Meaning 300 hit gets -45 hit, before having to face a say.. 250 dodge. >
Flat values, in cases of certain things are good, and also bad. If only because the uh. crit evade redux one. Most people dont have over 100 crit evade.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Soapy - 11-12-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=79#p79 Wrote:Rendar » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:20 pm[/url]"]it lowers Hit before it goes against dodge.Except it doesn't.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Rendar - 11-12-2014
Yomidori, doesn't. The one that is 15% does. It applies to Hit,Evade, and Crit Evade, however Yomidori's effect is applied after hit vs dodge is calculated.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Miller - 11-13-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=68#p68 Wrote:Miller » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:00 pm[/url]"]S
Proposed Rework of Skills #1
Proposed Rework of Skills #2
Raise to full STR scaling for all skills.
Or leave out effect skills for this as well.
Also as another thing to ponder about; 75% STR and 25% SKI Scaling instead of this, or 50% 50%.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Ranylyn - 11-13-2014
Quote:Also as another thing to ponder about; 75% STR and 25% SKI Scaling instead of this, or 50% 50%.
+1 approval, completely. This would definitely encourage people to invest in some Kensei attacks (I mean, they have more skill growth than strength) which would mean less points to "maliciously abuse innates" with.
Don't get me wrong. Autohits completely wreck dodgers completely and I don't feel that kensei innates are OP at all - they only function as a counter to the few classes low on autohits, now that dodges have been nerfed with more +hit innates like Fitting Form and the new Blessed. Factor in that a Kensei needs to be unarmored for Channel Spirit, and... yeah. But at least by giving them a WORTHWHILE use for their SP, only SOME kensei characters will make those classes rage, instead of largely being carbon copies of one another.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - LadyLightning - 11-13-2014
Or just 100% SKI. Kensei are a moderate-low STR class, their effectiveness comes from SKI... but all of their attack skills don't use it.
I can't be the only one that finds that weird.
Proposed Kensei rework, LadyLightning style!
Kagekiri, Hirazuki, Sharenzan, Toiken, Raijinken: All damage-dealing Kensei skills that used to scale with 75% STR,
now scale with 100% SKI instead. This allows Kensei to use their primary stat for damage, without having to worry
about not only a lesser stat, but only 75% of that lesser stat.
Critical Changes: Additionally, all damage-dealing Kensei skills will roll a Crit check, even if they're autohits -- just
like Ryemei. All autohits that roll a Crit check will use their weapon's Critical stat, and will not have their crit chances
capped. This ~includes~ Ryemei! Kensei skills will use your sword's Critical stat, and Ryemei will use your tome's Critical
stat. It is ~vitally important~ that all skills using a mechanic use the mechanic, and not an artificially gimped version
of that mechanic. Furthermore, ~all skills' damage and crit breakdowns will need to be shown in the battle tab!~
Momentum Changes: Whenever you score a critical hit with an autohit, whether that's Kagekiri, Raijinken, or Ryemei, you gain
+1 Momentum just like you would if it were a basic attack, or +2 with Fleur, of course. This would count as your bonus
Momentum from crits for the round, so if you were to crit with a basic attack afterward, you wouldn't gain any ~more~
Momentum. It baffles me why Ryemei can crit but doesn't give you +1 Momentum when it does. This needs to stop, Dev.
FP Costs: Decrease the FP costs of damage-dealing Kensei skills with rank, down to a little over half of their original FP
cost. I would say from 18 FP at rank 1, to 10 FP at rank 5, in addition to gaining increased damage. This way, with the
FP regen provided by Channel Spirit and the Capacity talent, you could have one skill per round at a 90% discount, and
the others would be relatively cheap in FP. Furthermore, with the buff to Tekagen mentioned below, we might see an
actual reason for Kensei to hold back.
Sheath Sword: Now functions any time you're hit with a melee weapon, or a weapon-specific skill that uses a melee
weapon, regardless of range or facing. It does not function against spells, ranged weapons, or weapon-specific skills
that use a ranged weapon, unless the attacker is within the reach of your melee weapon (which could be 2, if you're
using a sword with a huge blade part on it). Special note! Does ~not~ function against gun basic attacks that are
blocked using Blade Barrier! Your sword is either deflecting bullets or cutting your enemy, not both at once. Sorry.
Passive Changes!
Sakki: Now increases your own final, post-calculation critical chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final critical chance
of 50% becomes 50 * 1.15 = 57.5% with Rank 3 Sakki.
Touki: Now increases your own final, post-calculation hit chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final hit chance of 85%
becomes 85 * 1.15 = 97.75% with Rank 3 Touki.
Kenki: Now decreases an attacker's final, post-calculation hit chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final hit chance of
85% becomes 85 - (85 * 0.15) = 72.25% with Rank 3 Kenki.
Yomidori: Now decreases an attacker's final, post-calculation hit chance by 10/20/30 flat percentage points, provided
they have already targeted you with an attack, or dealt even a single point of damage to you in the current round. A
hit chance of 72.25% becomes 72.25 - 30 = 42.25% with Rank 3 Yomidori.
Peerless: Now passively increases SKI and CEL by +1 each per rank, and no longer increases STR. Given the Kensei's
reduced reliance on STR in this proposed rework, it can no longer be assumed that STR = damage.
Katana Mastery: Now adds +2/4/6/8/10 bonus unresistable Slash damage to damage-dealing Kensei skills and basic
attacks with katana-type swords, instead of the very vague description of "+5 Power." For skills, this damage is simply
added to the Rank bonus of the skill. For basic attacks, however, this damage is added as an on-hit effect, which means
it's not multiplied on a critical hit, and can be negated by a Black Knight under the effect of Steel Aura.
Hidden Cut: Now scales with SKI instead of STR. The numbers remain the same, at 10 + 10%SKI / 15 + 10%SKI /20 + 20% SKI
/ 25 + 20% SKI / 30 + 30% SKI.
Tekagen: HP and FP regeneration is based on the stats you lose while it's active. Instead of simply adding a flat 3 regen,
the Kensei will now regenerate 10% of the stat points they lost in both HP and FP for as long as Tekagen is active. After
all, the better you get, the more you're holding back. Additionally, Tekagen only halves your base stats, not your total
stats.
Example Stat Block, using ideal stats at Lv. 60 Kensei
Normal ~~ Tekagen
STR ~~ 30 ~~ 15
WIL ~~ 15 ~~ 7
SKI ~~ 60 ~~ 30
CEL ~~ 60 ~~ 30
DEF ~~ 10 ~~ 5
RES ~~ 10 ~~ 5
VIT ~~ 35 ~~ 35
FAI ~~ 20 ~~ 10
LUC ~~ 25 ~~ 12
Total stat points lost: 116
Resulting regen: 116 * 0.1 = 11.6 -> 11 HP / FP regen per round.
Re: [Kensei Rework] - Slydria - 11-13-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=172#p172 Wrote:LadyLightning » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:06 am[/url]"]
Kagekiri, Hirazuki, Sharenzan, Toiken, Raijinken: All damage-dealing Kensei skills that used to scale with 75% STR,
now scale with 100% SKI instead. This allows Kensei to use their primary stat for damage, without having to worry
about not only a lesser stat, but only 75% of that lesser stat.
I think 100% SKI scaling is too much reliance on SKI and I'd prefer 100% STR scaling or 50% STR and SKI scaling.
This is mainly due to the fact that SKI already has a significant role for Kensei impacting not only Hit rate but Critical rate too (as well as Riposte's trigger rate). Even with 100% STR, SKI will still be a factor if they end up being able to score Critical Hits.
Quote:Sakki: Now increases your own final, post-calculation critical chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final critical chance
of 50% becomes 50 * 1.15 = 57.5% with Rank 3 Sakki.
Touki: Now increases your own final, post-calculation hit chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final hit chance of 85%
becomes 85 * 1.15 = 97.75% with Rank 3 Touki.
Kenki: Now decreases an attacker's final, post-calculation hit chance by 5/10/15% of its value. A final hit chance of
85% becomes 85 - (85 * 0.15) = 72.25% with Rank 3 Kenki.
I think the changes to Sakki, Touki and Kenki may as well be flat values too considering how little impact they have with your suggested changes and for simplicities' sake.
e.g.
50 + 15 = 65%
85 + 15 = 100%
85 - 15 = 70%
Quote:Peerless: Now passively increases SKI and CEL by +1 each per rank, and no longer increases STR. Given the Kensei's
reduced reliance on STR in this proposed rework, it can no longer be assumed that STR = damage.
STR is still plenty useful for Kensei. It's a factor in Basic Attacks, Duelist Offensive Skills, Wazabane and Hidden Cut. I think Peerless (and STR being a key stat for Kensei) should stay.
Everything else seems fine to me though.