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Limiting Reductions - Chaos - 06-16-2015

With the advent of Evasion, we now have quite a bit of damage reduction effects on the board-- and most of these effects can go along with each other. Given the right setup, this can amount to brutal damage minimizing that'll make anyone who even disregards DEF/RES entirely a pseudo-tank on their own.

That being said, I would like to pitch an idea to curb the reduction stacking:

When a player has one or more damage reductions, only the highest relevant effect will be used.

For instance, if you took magic damage while Rank 5 Evasion kicked in and Voidveil was on, only Evasion would apply. Or if you took physical damage while Wraithguard kicked in and you had BK's full 36% Phys. Reduction going on, only the 36% reduction would apply.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Ranylyn - 06-16-2015

1) BK's 36% DR only applies with heavy Armor. WG only applies when NOT using heavy armor.
2) I don't see the issue with Voideil/Evasion stacking; VA is supposed to be anti-mage, anyways.


Am I opposed to implementing some kind of absolute cap? No. But IMO, stacking is just creative use of game mechanics that encourages class diversification beyond staple "optimal" combos, and encourages play of many fairly unused classes.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Soapy - 06-16-2015

"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7806#p7806 Wrote:Ranylyn » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:33 pm[/url]"]encourages class diversification
Quote:"be va or go home"
"yeah, totally... what the fuck are you talking about"
"did you mean: the classes with that DR?"


Re: Limiting Reductions - Slydria - 06-16-2015

I agree with the idea of limiting Physical Reduction, Magical Reduction and Damage Reduction to whichever works best. Especially in the future, we'll have more classes, skills and items that no doubt will cause similar issues when using the same mechanics.

"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7806#p7806 Wrote:Ranylyn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:33 am[/url]"]
But IMO, stacking is just creative use of game mechanics that encourages class diversification beyond staple "optimal" combos, and encourages play of many fairly unused classes.

I completely disagree. Stacking rewards optimal combinations which encourages players to use the same classes with the same skills which is not creative to me.

E.g. In this case, because these stack currently the mix of something like VA/Ghost is a solid choice. Between Wraithguard, Evasion, Voidveil (and further stacking of things like elemental resistance), even Mind Charged Evokers would deal very negligible damage.

If you wanna see how dangerous this can be, here's some math for you:

Let's say you have an Evoker that's Charged up and ready to waste you with an Overload on such a character.

Let's say normally, without all those defenses, it'd deal a massive 600 Lightning Damage, enough in normal circumstances to kill the majority of players.

Let's say you use the combination I pitched. With a good Beldam Aegis with at least 25% Lightning Resistance and 20 RES. Here is what would happen (assuming this order of calculation is correct):

Elemental Resistance goes first. Reducing the 600 by 25% to 450 thanks to the Lightning Resistance.

Then DEF/RES which is a 20 for the example. Reducing the 450 to 430.

Next Physical/Magical Reduction. In this case, Voidveil. Reducing 430 by 30% to 301.

Finally, you have your Damage Reductions. Wraithguard's up first here, reducing 301 by 30% to 210.

Your Beldam Aegis gives you the Guard skill. 1M left over is a typical thing, may as well use it to Guard, reducing 210 by 10% to 189.

Lastly, Evasion, dodging that mage is no big deal, reducing 189 by 50% to 94.

600 down to 94. That's only a little more than 15% of it's original damage. And for about 15M needed to set up without getting silenced or your Invocation smashed, that's a very bad deal.

EDIT: Adjusted math since Evasion applies last. But I somehow still got a similar end result, so I guess it's not a big deal.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Neus - 06-16-2015

Evasion applies after every other modifier.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Ranylyn - 06-17-2015

"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7812#p7812 Wrote:Slydria » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:54 pm[/url]"]
If you wanna see how dangerous this can be, here's some math for you:

Let's say you have an Evoker that's Charged up and ready to waste you with an Overload on such a character.

Let's say normally, without all those defenses, it'd deal a massive 600 Lightning Damage, enough in normal circumstances to kill the majority of players.

Let's say you use the combination I pitched. With a good Beldam Aegis with at least 25% Lightning Resistance and 20 RES. Here is what would happen (assuming this order of calculation is correct):

Elemental Resistance goes first. Reducing the 600 by 25% to 450 thanks to the Lightning Resistance.

Then DEF/RES which is a 20 for the example. Reducing the 450 to 430.

Next Physical/Magical Reduction. In this case, Voidveil. Reducing 430 by 30% to 301.

Finally, you have your Damage Reductions. Wraithguard's up first here, reducing 301 by 30% to 210.

Your Beldam Aegis gives you the Guard skill. 1M left over is a typical thing, may as well use it to Guard, reducing 210 by 10% to 189.

Lastly, Evasion, dodging that mage is no big deal, reducing 189 by 50% to 94.

600 down to 94. That's only a little more than 15% of it's original damage. And for about 15M needed to set up without getting silenced or your Invocation smashed, that's a very bad deal.

EDIT: Adjusted math since Evasion applies last. But I somehow still got a similar end result, so I guess it's not a big deal.

First off, that's assuming that a VA/G had a Shield, which means giving up either sword skills or all the nice little VA dagger benefits. AND keep in mind that Evasion is modified by accuracy, and Guard's -10% Evade would have an impact on Evasion's potency. Once cconsidering Evokers get a 30% Skill growth, I'm highly doubting that a penalty to evade would mean Evasion is not the full 50% possible. Also, with only 20 Res, Wraithguard can't be relied on. It's a nice bonus when it works, but it's not like you can count on it for the big hits like that when you need it.

Percentage based reductions are the ONLY defense against evokers, since Res is applied AFTER multipliers, leading evokers to basically completely nullify resistance; even if you got 50 Res; 250 vs 300? Close enough, right? And you're literally looking at the only two classes specifically designed to be anti mage (Say what you will about Ghost, that 40% Res growth does not lie, and keep in mind, in the Lore, that the Geistritter are a unit of ghosts for dealing with magical issues.) I see literally ZERO problem in Evokers having a COUNTER. Dodgers wreck MGs. BKs wreck physical attackers. Evokers wreck MOST classes. These are really the only two classes with any kind of real footing against evokers (Sure, you can knock down invocations, but a smart evoker will know when not to go for the invocation) and you need to get over it.

Like I said. I'd be okay with implementing some kind of "absolute cap" but not preventing stacking at all. Because while you see stacking as "Optimal" I see it as completely overlooking the synergy offered by other class combos. It's a tactical choice of gains versus sacrifices.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Slydria - 06-17-2015

I don't want to continue arguing over this but I will address one thing because I feel like you've completely missed the point I was trying to demonstrate with that math.

Quote:I see literally ZERO problem in Evokers having a COUNTER.

This isn't an Evoker exclusive issue, this harms all classes. I used Evoker as the example to demonstrate to people how even the most infamous class in the game for damage is reduced to a joke.

Now, go over the math but instead of 600 (which was an extreme value and not at all the norm), do it with something smaller, something typical and not extreme, like 100. Same examples as above, it was lowered to 17. Stacking reductions like this is unfair to everyone.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Ranylyn - 06-17-2015

"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7827#p7827 Wrote:Slydria » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:09 am[/url]"]I don't want to continue arguing over this but I will address one thing because I feel like you've completely missed the point I was trying to demonstrate with that math.

No. YOU completely missed MY point.

Quote:First off, that's assuming that a VA/G had a Shield, which means giving up either sword skills or all the nice little VA dagger benefits. AND keep in mind that Evasion is modified by accuracy, and Guard's -10% Evade would have an impact on Evasion's potency. Once cconsidering Evokers get a 30% Skill growth, I'm highly doubting that a penalty to evade would mean Evasion is not the full 50% possible. Also, with only 20 Res, Wraithguard can't be relied on. It's a nice bonus when it works, but it's not like you can count on it for the big hits like that when you need it.

1) In this scenario you present, you assume they sacrifice a great deal of their offensive options for that defense. They either lack a dagger (200% Crit damage, and Silence/Knockdown options) or a Sword (A plethora of attacks, including but not limited to Sidecut) Sacrificing offensive tools for additional defenses is a decision one needs to make, and it's a fair trade-off.

2) You assume that the Guard bonus/penalty and Evasion mesh perfectly against a class with decent skill. Dev says that Evasion is based on hit rolls like normal attacks. Since VA/G has no wild modifiers (outside of skills like Blotch, and why would you go for the Blotch when you can stop the invocation?) chances are, the Evoker's hit rolls WOULD be pretty good, and the VA's evasion further reduced by guard's 10%. Therefore, Evasion would likely NOT be anywhere near the full 50%. It might even be 0%.

3) Most classes cannot really stack damage reduction effectively anyways, so this really doesn't hurt "All" classes. Sure, some combos exist for specific damage types (BK/Bonder, for example, installing Drowned Woman + Heavy Armor passive damage reduction = Good luck using Slash/Pierce/Blunt effectively) but the closest singular "catch all" is Wraithguard, and the closest build to a "reduce everything" is a Ghost/Monk with a Sayakensa or whatever that one item is called, which is also dependant on getting to 30 will, never using any Ki, and of course, the luck-based Wraithguard activation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being built to be Anti-Physical or Anti-mage, and very little is good against both.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Slydria - 06-17-2015

No, I didn't. I just don't want to get caught up in your points because they don't matter to the issue at hand, but since you are being so frustrating with your sidestepping of the issue, I guess I'll just have to painstakingly go through this.


1) Did you know that daggers are generally the more effective weapon for Void Assassins? Did you know that you don't use the Main Hand for anything but a weapon? Great. You don't need that sword. "But the sword skills!" No, this is besides the point, it's not important to this topic and to what I'm even talking about. As you saw in the math, Elemental Resistance is an effective component against your enemies. "But you can't resist everything!"

Well, actually, thanks to things like Stamps, Sayakana, CoMCs, Talents and all manner of other equipment. You pretty much can resist just about everything your opponent can throw at you. Elemental Resistance alone or even paired with just one thing wouldn't really be a big issue but because of stacking it is a problem.


2) No, I didn't forget. I'm perfectly aware that Evasion and Guard work against each other but you are giving your average Evoker's accuracy far too much credit. But alright, if you really believe you can't sacrifice that 10% against an Evoker that relies on it's spells, guess what...?

You can choose not to Guard. It'd still be worth getting a shield for the Elemental Resistance. Here's another suggestion. You can use a Nullstone Gauntlet or alternatively an Ogata's Waraji on your feet. Or both. I can ramble on about this for ages but it's not important because the real issue here is the fact that you can stack it up so heavily, have multiple reductions trigger at once and make your attack nigh useless.


3) "Most classes" being unable to do it is does not mean it is not an issue now and won't be keep being an issue down the line. Think back. Do you remember long ago when the vast majority of players specifically used BK/Ghost for Wraithguard, Indomitable and Body Guard? Do you remember how Wraithguard was nerfed to specifically not work with Heavy Armor because the combination was so effective?

Don't keep telling us that stacking damage reduction is totally fair because the facts and the history show otherwise. The big difference between now and then is they are slightly less potent individually yet more readily available, making stacking several things at once easier than before.

So here's how this behaviour hurts all classes. People are encouraged to do the same thing because it is the most effective at defeating other classes. The best way to generally deal with it will end up being to fight fire with fire and then it becomes dependant on who has the best stats and equipment over using strategy to overcome your opponent.

Those that cannot fight on their terms will lose because they cannot reliably harm them and that means if you can't hurt them, you can't win and that's an issue for everyone. Maybe they can counteract one or two of their methods of damage reduction but you can't possibly stop all of it, some of these methods don't have counters in any way. And even better still, sheer defensiveness isn't the only thing they can possibly do.


This is the last thing I'm going to refute on this topic because this back and forth could go on forever and nobody wants that. You've said your piece, I've said mine, we clearly disagree with each other, let's just stop.

TL;DR stacking damage reductions is a glaring issue. Even if the new Evasion skill is nerfed (and in my opinion it should be), there will be new items, skills, etc. in the future that will fall into similar trappings and will need to be addressed. I think it's a good opportunity to deal with this now.

Re: Limiting Reductions - Neus - 06-18-2015

A few thoughts.

  1. I could see Void Assassin's Voidveil reduction getting reduced to half and its void energy generation getting doubled, since they always have access to Evasion now.
  2. Evasion could also get some modifications to its damage reduction percentage based on the armor type you're using. Unarmored could have the current 50% modifier, light armor could have 25%, heavy armor could have 0%.
  3. I could see Guard preventing Evasion, since you're focusing on blocking the attack and not avoiding it.