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+--- Thread: Player Agency: In Airides defense. (/showthread.php?tid=3699)
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Ranylyn - 11-20-2016
Disclaimer: I just know someone will bring this up in an attempt to discredit my post, so I'll state it flat out: I've never gotten along especially well with Airide. We don't actively fight and I bear no ill will, but we certainly don't count one another as friends. This does not actively mean negative bias. What I DO have negative bias against is actually the guards themselves, for various reasons! My whole point is, you know you've gone and screwed up when I'm siding with the guards over someone.
On to the post:
Oh, look, another thread about "How dare I be punished for IC offenses!"
https://youtu.be/Zx40udwQvZI
- Dev has stated numerous times that the laws clearly mirror typical RL laws with a degree of common sense? Making threats? Making people fearful of what tomorrow may bring, fearing for their lives and family? VERY, VERY ILLEGAL. A lot of arrogant people who twist "freedom" to suit their own ends claim that "freedom of speech" protects this - but it does not, nor does it protect hate speech, for the record. Freedom of speech is what allows you to express discontent with the government's choices without being jailed for it. Compare to the fact that "Freedom of the Press" does not allow libel, but simply allows journalists to report on the non-classified (Military/ Intelligence) facts that may ruffle feathers, like government scandals. The whole benefit of a "free" country is to be able to confidently live your life in safety without worrying about accidentally setting a toe into a politician's circle of influence and suffering for it, and to be able to not be falsely arrested without a warrant, etc. It's all common sense, and arguing that the laws weren't clearly defined is bullshit because you'd be imprisoned for this shit in real life, and clearly you know this since you're on SL2 and not in RL jail. So stop acting like that, because you're just making yourself look stupid, and doing so on purpose just to benefit you in this one specific case.
- Dev has also stated numerous times that guards are supposed to be stronger than players. How can they keep the peace if they can't apprehend anyone? The purpose of this is so that players can't just break the law with impunity and never pay for their crimes. This is similar to how in some countries, the police have helicopters to chase down dangerous suspects and higher-end cars that are technically "street legal" but will outspeed many cars on the road. TLDR, complaining that the Guard Captain is bullshit is the opposite of the issue; player guards are restricted by the limitations of the system and should be stronger in order to do their jobs.
- Why would the empire, which allows execution of criminals, waste resources on repeated long term incarceration when there's clearly no end to the arrests of one person? I mean really. Far better to just "cut their problems in half" and be done with it, as it were. Again. Common sense.
Ultimately, I don't need to say anything else. Walrus has covered most of it already. I'm just weighing to go "Maybe you should have thought of the CONSEQUENCES before BREAKING THE LAW." And I'll side against the criminals as many times as it takes. I was with the guards against Romek, and I'm against Krono now. End of story.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Snake - 11-20-2016
Alright, objection. Staaahp talking. Let's not make this Romek Case v2.2, like, jesus christ. Stop!
Sure, y'all got fair arguments, and the lack of written laws are what caused this, so 'haw haw', I was right in the end. They need to be made ay-sap so people can stop crying salt everytime they're about to get executed. And second, the warning should've been more clear... If only a chopped finger came together, mmm?? I doubt he'd forget that 'next time it won't be just a finger'.
This setup is perfect for an 'elitist empire'. (''Too bad'' Chaos is pretty damn merciful.)
The lack of present laws also gives the guard something to roleplay on, so it's probably intentional. It would suck to be a guard and have their daily job to AFK at the arena/cellsvich or no job at all because the NPCs are doing most of those for them, or that people are just conscious that they exist.
There's no need for this discussion, nothing will change IC from a simple forum thread, and if it changed, THAT would be meta/godmod. Romek's case was no different. And he was not 'lol released because 'good girl meme' and sent off to ponyland'.
Nope! An event happened, a very secret one, and the outcome was a lucky Hexer/Verglas together with a Monk/Ghost, in the party. (People had to FIGHT for it. For something Dave simply shrugged off with a satisfied smile before leaving. Well, it was achieving for me, atleast I've put a 'neutral ending' to his char's story. Heck, the final 'farewell' moment before his 'exiling without death' made my eyes sweat.)
Soooo... Don't worry.
I don't even know why y'all egg Chaos. He's simply the card dealer, and people must play with his cards, not make their own, or else it will stop being a 'game' and become a mess like Soapy's anime life.
Just chill and let it flow, as if some people ICly are going to agree with that. I personally love execution drama, it puts some motion in a game the GMs have forsaken us. (Event never.)
We 'will' know if it is or not a dickmove if there's like 999 NPC Guards and the whole First Squad protecting Krono while forming a big wall to keep anybody who's not agreeing with it away.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Soapy - 11-20-2016
"Snake" Wrote:it will stop being a 'game' and become a mess like Soapy's anime life.:|
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Snake - 11-20-2016
What? That was a good one. : (
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Sawrock - 11-20-2016
You know how Romek had a thread made about him for his execution. You know that Krono has this thread made about him for his exectuion, too, since we're all here. Guess who didn't have a thread made about his character dying?
Me. Because I accepted the consequences for my actions. Because I enjoy consistency in roleplay and lore far above than my own narcissistic character obsessions. When a character needs to die, you should let it happen, because ultimately? A character is a tool for roleplay. Getting upset over their death is fine, but when you try to OOCly break the system that's been established for your own benefit, whether it's for your friend or for your own character, is just... bad roleplay.
I've had three characters die, off the top of my head. First Kasan Venin/Fang, which another player killed. I whined a LOT after that, but I never reversed my decision, even when I wanted to and was given the choice to. Bloeden died after that to an execution by the empire, and I didn't complain. I tried to rearrange things ICly to avoid it, but that was IC, and eventually yes, he did die. So I accepted it. And, Finally, Falk Githens, my chomper, died to something I'd rather not reveal (as it is purely IC, and should be hidden).
Anyway, to address some things in this thread, I have quite the amount of logs due to me having to deal with situations in the past.
Quote:A sticker on a book: This is just flat out stupod.
Quote:Kcoryas Wartil pulls out a book, reading the pages over intently.
Tattooed Butler pulls out a book title, 'How to fuck over the guards, volume 11'.
Quinn says "Guys, I'm not sure what to do here. "
Quinn says "Is this inducing panic?"
Tattooed Butler says "Your job."
Kcoryas Wartil snaps his book shut.
Red Scarf Grimalkin says "Wait I'm lost."
Verio says "Is it? Well I don´t see anyone panicing."
Red Scarf Grimalkin says "She didn't eat hos hand?"
Red Scarf Grimalkin says "(his*)"
Kcoryas Wartil says "You."
Kcoryas Wartil looms over the butler, staring.
Tattooed Butler pulls his book down, "Yes?"
Small Shooter says "What happened, do not lie, I'll be referencing your story with Tarson."
Small Shooter stared at Verio.
Verio says "Me and Yuk played a little prank on the people of the arena, so I cast a illusion on them in which they saw that yuk bite a piece of my hand off."
Tattooed Butler says "No seriously, what do you want?"
The world will reboot automatically in approximately 20 minutes. Be prepared.
Verio shows them both of his hands, they were completly fine. "As you can see, Everything fine. "
Verio says "Sorry to everyone involved in my prank."
Kcoryas Wartil says "..."
Kcoryas Wartil says "How idiotic are you?"
Verio says "In which scale?"
Tattooed Butler says "How well do you do your job?"
Small Shooter took the man's hand, glancing it over "..So there was no wound?"
Kcoryas Wartil says "Well enough to arrest you for that anti-government propaganda."
Tattooed Butler says "It's only anti-government if I actually do something anti-government."
Verio looks at the woman and shrugs slightly. "Well a small one, but nothing serious, she bit but it wasn´t remotly as hard as I made it look for everyone."
Kcoryas Wartil says "Or own something."
Tattooed Butler says "For all you know, which is very little, is that I'm just reading a book, because I enjoy reading it's a good past time."
Tattooed Butler says "I'm not selling the book for telling people to fuck the guards and start a revolution, am I?"
Kcoryas Wartil says "You don't have to be selling it."
Verio says "I promise to not play those pranks in Future, miss guard lady."
Kcoryas Wartil says "Owning it is enough."
Kcoryas Wartil says "I'll give you a chance. Stop with the snarky remarks. Burn that book. And we'll be as peachy as Sigroganian pie."
Small Shooter says "Causing a stir like that is nothing short of stupidity, make sure that you don't and we'll all get along fine."
Verio says "I want some pie..."
Keir Womack says "How to fu-.... isn't that a gentleman's literature?"
Tattooed Butler says "Owning it proves that I just have the book, and just because I don't like the guards due to their past stupidity is beyond me."
Verio says "Yes, Ma´am. I don´t want to cause trouble."
Quinn says "...Yay."
Kcoryas Wartil pulls out some handcuffs, then.
Tattooed Butler says "Also no Keir, who reads porn in public?"
Keir Womack says "Good point."
Tattooed Butler takes off the sticker to reveal it's a cook book, "You don't being an idiot?"
Kcoryas Wartil says "Turn around. Hands to your back."
Red Scarf Grimalkin says "Bye mister Krono."
Verio says "Uhm, is Yuk still in trouble?"
Verio says "She didn´t mean any harm."
Small Shooter says "..That is up for debate, Quinn, if you would tell me what you saw when you arrived."
Kcoryas Wartil says "Interrupting an officer during active duty for a false claim, whether that claim was intended to be put forward by you or not..."
Kcoryas Wartil says "It'd be the same as yelling "FIRE!" in a tavern."
Quinn says "Sure."
Kcoryas Wartil says "Less dangerous, perhaps, but still a crime."
Kcoryas Wartil says "Now. Turn around. Hands to your back."
Quinn says "This guy here had a bloody hand with a chunk of flesh missing, Yuk was chewing on something. Seemed to be cake."
Keir Womack says "What's his fine for being an idiot sir?"
Tattooed Butler places a pipe into his mouth before he lit the contents inside, "I'm going to refuse."
I gave him a chance to not be arrested. He refused. I gave him a chance at lesser punishment if he didn't resist. He refused. The reason why my character arrested him for the book is because... well, in-character reasons. My character is a die-hard soldier and guard of the empire who would risk his life to defend it. He didn't take kindly to the sass that Krono was giving. Krono was doing the equivalent of telling a cop "You going to arrest me since I have donuts, fatty?" A real police officer wouldn't take kindly to that. However, this isn't modern-day roleplay with a democracy and the like, this is an empire. And Kcoryas ICly did what he would ICly do.
Quote:In fact he was the one who was attacked, and a multitude of people saw this, hell when Eden went to get the guards his words were: "Krono is being attacked."
Quote:Red Capped Adolescent says "Stop!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "Guys stop!"
Onigan Maiden says "Karika please!"
Brutal Thug says "Don't kill'em, just make sure he can't escape."
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Brutal Thug says "We need th'rpoof!"
Brutal Thug recovered 3 FP.
Tattooed Butler takes 158 Ice magical damage.
Status Infliction: 158.32 VS Status Resistance: 34
Tattooed Butler was inflicted with Frostbite!
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Tattooed Butler's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion attacks Tattooed Butler with Illusion Wing and hits them!
Tattooed Butler takes 0 Wind physical damage.
Brutal Thug says "Proof that spatials are real!"
--- ROUND 6 ---
Brutal Thug recovered 1 HP.
Brutal Thug recovered 3 FP.
Red Fairy recovered 2 HP.
Red Fairy recovered 2 FP.
Frosty-Winged Girl recovered 1 HP.
Frosty-Winged Girl recovered 3 FP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 3 HP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 1 HP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 2 FP.
Brutal Thug's turn.
Frosty-Winged Girl says "Right!"
Brutal Thug's turn.
Red Fairy's turn.
Faker says "...Krono."
Red Fairy's turn.
Faker says "For the love of god, let me in."
Brutal Thug recovered 3 FP.
Frosty-Winged Girl recovered 3 FP.
Red Fairy's turn.
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Brutal Thug recovered 3 FP.
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Red Fairy says "I hope they hate electricity..."
Tattooed Butler takes 40 Blunt physical damage.
Local OOC Red Fairy: OMG KRONO D/CED
Tattooed Butler's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion attacks Tattooed Butler with Illusion Wing and hits them!
Tattooed Butler takes 0 Wind physical damage.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
Local OOC Red Fairy: just saw in the vance discord!
Rose-Colored Knight says "Sure."
Butterfly Illusion's turn.
--- ROUND 7 ---
Red Fairy recovered 2 HP.
Red Fairy recovered 2 FP.
Brutal Thug recovered 1 HP.
Brutal Thug recovered 3 FP.
Frosty-Winged Girl recovered 1 HP.
Frosty-Winged Girl recovered 3 FP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 3 HP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 2 HP.
Tattooed Butler recovered 2 FP.
Red Fairy's turn.
Local OOC Short Karatynn Scientist: he dced
Local OOC Frosty-Winged Girl: Oh.
Local OOC Doctor Warrick: Wow...
Local OOC Brutal Thug: Let's wait for him.
Local OOC Red Fairy: G FUCKING LOL
Brutal Thug's turn.
Local OOC Faker: hold your turn pls
Local OOC Short Karatynn Scientist: BEATING A DEAD HORSE ARE WE-
Local OOC Red Fairy: whoops meant to hold not end
Local OOC Frosty-Winged Girl: will do
Red Capped Adolescent says "SLAM!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "Stop now!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "Karika you too!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "It's a mask!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "Everyone has one!"
Frosty-Winged Girl says "No, Warrick's the one with the mask."
Doctor Warrick says "Kid, they think I'm a spatial."
Frosty-Winged Girl says "It's to hide his spatial head!"
Red Capped Adolescent says "Karika are we friends?"
Small Shooter says "Uh yeah, what is going on here?"
Local OOC Short Karatynn Scientist: rip in krono
Faker shouts "THEY WANT TO KILL KRONO!"
Red Fairy says "W-we're stopping a spatial ghost!"
Brutal Thug skips their turn.
Frosty-Winged Girl's turn.
Local OOC Red Capped Adolescent: IT WONT LET ME JOIN
Frosty-Winged Girl says "The spatial ghost tried to attack me!"
Faker shouts "REEEEEEEEEEEE MY FRIEND, MY GOD DAMN FRIEND, DON'T LET MY FRIEND DIE!"
Local OOC Red Fairy: because krono d/ced and can't accept
Local OOC Small Shooter: kek
Cheerful Blonde says "That's a horrible lie."
Faker shouts "IF HE DIES I'LL BECOME EDGY, NOBODY LIKES AN EDGY SORA, RIGHT?!"
Short Karatynn Scientist says "Yeah..I'm about..to jump in..if they continue..this..bloody..shitty..joke.."
OOC AetherRaid: KRONO
Small Shooter says "All of you, cease and seperate."
Red Capped Adolescent says "KARIKA!"
Red Fairy says "SPATIALS AREN'T A JOKE I HEARD THEIR PLANS!"
Brutal Thug says "The spatial ghost needs t'be brought in for inspection by the guards!"
Short Karatynn Scientist says "...Someone..else stop these..clowns-"
Victoria Rockwell says "Alright, break it up people. No more combatants."
Faker says "Ha."
Red Capped Adolescent says "DAMMIT, SLAMM STOP!"
Brutal Thug says "...Arright, y'heard th'law."
Faker says "Guards got this."
Frosty-Winged Girl nods at Slamm.
Cheerful Blonde says "Thank Mercala.."
Brutal Thug says "Karika, th'guards will know th'truth now."
Red Fairy says "Nnn.... R-right... law... told us to... damn it why are spatials protected..."
Frosty-Winged Girl's party failed to flee!
We were not aiming to kill you. We were aiming to capture you for the guards to take you into custody, as ICly my character (Lord Slamm) and his daughter (the Frosty-Winged Girl) have been trying to prove that there's a secret spatial menace, because our characters are conspiracy theorists. And despite us stopping to attempt to capture you when the guards showed up, we still got arrested ourselves, due to the inability to explain ourselves in a logical manner (since, y'know, our characters were crazy). However, what you did was IC as well- you tried to scare a character that was known to react bad to spatials, which is comparable to shooting fireworks next to a war vet.
Ultimately, Krono, you're just flailing to get out of a situation OOCly, when it should be treated ICly.
If Dev wants the full logs, I can provide such from my folder of logs. In any case, good thing I have the logs, because this thread makes me sick.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - catabur - 11-20-2016
I think everyone has brought up a fair amount of points against this case.
I don't really know why the DnD thing was brought up, since I've made a guard commander in 13th Ages before who got forced into being a guard, then was there when the old guard commander died and claimed he made her the GC. It has nothing to do with Sl2, or Sigrogana's guard commander as much as you perceive it to be.
Unless you like to complain that your character's death in a DnD session isn't what you wanted it to be and so you're retconning it.
The act that was basically yelling BOMB at the airport or HE HAS A GUN at a school, which is slightly silly to kill someone over, but then you have to take account in Krono's character. Why would the Empire really want to keep someone who not only proclaimed to be a bandit before hand, but has a larger criminal record than most people and continues to act like the Empire's laws don't apply to him?
And calling the guards "harsh" is fucking bullshit. Being a guard is slapping people on the wrist for doing fucked up crimes only to be called shit because we're trying to do our jobs instead of allowing your friends to get away with things. I have my own opinion on the guard and never once was it, "they're too hard on criminals".
And, hey, Chaos has said that he'd gut the execution if good enough evidence is provided for why he shouldn't.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - iStabOreos - 11-20-2016
"Sawrock" Wrote:We were not aiming to kill you. We were aiming to capture you for the guards to take you into custody, as ICly my character (Lord Slamm) and his daughter (the Frosty-Winged Girl) have been trying to prove that there's a secret spatial menace, because our characters are conspiracy theorists. And despite us stopping to attempt to capture you when the guards showed up, we still got arrested ourselves, due to the inability to explain ourselves in a logical manner (since, y'know, our characters were crazy). However, what you did was IC as well- you tried to scare a character that was known to react bad to spatials, which is comparable to shooting fireworks next to a war vet.
Ultimately, Krono, you're just flailing to get out of a situation OOCly, when it should be treated ICly.
If Dev wants the full logs, I can provide such from my folder of logs. In any case, good thing I have the logs, because this thread makes me sick.
Allow me to retort this:
* I don't care about how it happened, because in the end, it really is dumb and it happened regardless, the same with the sticker incident. However, I will thank you for the logs because, yes, they were needed. I won't deny my involvement, because well for one the logs, and two the fact I'm not going to sit here and be 'that guy'. I'll properly explain myself below.
* when it should be treated ICly. Yeah, tell me that whenever guards actually RP worth a damn in the Fort, because out of just a few, including you and I, thank you for that mostly because no one is going to waltz into the Fort and RP unless they do the quick "GTFO" post and escort you out. That being said, your character, (gonna use Bloaden for this because that's the only reference I can make at the time.) deserved to get the axe if he's literally going around attacking and killing people over and over again, granted he was a nutjob, but the severity of his crimes dictated this, this is the same with fucking modern cases.
Now for the kicker, because this has been said many times and it'll be stated now.
The Guard/Jail System is Fucking Stupid.
Why do I say this? Well I already explained this briefly, but the fact almost anyone can get axe due to how many times someone's been thrown into jail and not by on I don't know their crimes itself is a problem, not sure how many people have pointed this out, because if that was the case then it would be a much better jailing system imo.
Now this is controversial for me to say it, but because I've seen it and gave my two cents on it already, I feel the need to here, why not? Most of the guards are shit. I don't drop any names, because that's purely rude, but there is a clear bias, I always bring up the Serphaia case when she in the middle of Cellsvich pulled out a weapon and attempted/almost decapitated Krono just for speaking his mind to two others when she was walking by. Of course a guard saw this and just gave the lass a finger wag and told them to separate that same guard was then chatting up with Serphaina(I know I'm butchering the name, and I apologize) like nothing happened. Now if this was any other character or rather the other way around Krono would have been the one to get arrested, and this was way before he burned down Vintaro's house due to a he-said-she-said IC bs. Am I not wrong on this? Because this is pretty bad.
I don't know if I got my point across, or if it was clear or not, but clearly if people are going to rage out on a forum like this for dumb shit, granted it's the shit I caused, then clearly a change needs to happen, and I can't be the only one who sees this.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - catabur - 11-20-2016
"iStabOreos" Wrote:Yeah, tell me that whenever guards actually RP worth a damn in the Fort,
When someone asks? If you honestly expect guards to sit in an empty prison for the small chance that a prisoner actually gets online, you're expecting waaaay toooooo muuuuuuch (not to mention you'd just call us shit for not patrolling and "afking in the fort"
. But if you're like, "Hey, can I get a guard to the fort?", someone would probably get on it. Depends on how busy everyone is in real life. With Tin dying, my infantryism, and mostly everyone hating being a guard.No one ever asks or tells us anything and just goes to complain to their clique of friends. "I don't like that this guard this!!!" Why didn't you go tell a different guard? Why didn't you try to express your distaste for the guards that isn't just saying "all the guards are shit and suck at their job" when they're not around, but immediately shut up as soon as one turns up?
Why do you choose to be silent until your character is being punished for IC actions?
Anything else would've been better than trying to shittalk behind the guard's back and just continuing to be a dumbass by not listening.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - iStabOreos - 11-20-2016
"catabur" Wrote:"iStabOreos" Wrote:Yeah, tell me that whenever guards actually RP worth a damn in the Fort,
When someone asks? If you honestly expect guards to sit in an empty prison for the small chance that a prisoner actually gets online, you're expecting waaaay toooooo muuuuuuch (not to mention you'd just call us shit for not patrolling and "afking in the fort"
No one ever asks or tells us anything and just goes to complain to their clique of friends. "I don't like that this guard this!!!" Why didn't you go tell a different guard? Why didn't you try to express your distaste for the guards that isn't just saying "all the guards are shit and suck at their job" when they're not around, but immediately shut up as soon as one turns up?
Why do you choose to be silent until your character is being punished for IC actions?
Anything else would've been better than trying to shittalk behind the guard's back and just continuing to be a dumbass by not listening.
I've tried this, and I've spoken to Trex about this in local ooc when I had to get a guard escort in order to go OOC (yes this is a thing). Before I get to the main reason I'll say this, even if I had tried to ask a guard to do jail RP, would you really think any of you would with the 'multiple' RP sessions you have? Honestly, I don't think so because people would rather not do that and AFK in the arena or RP in the arena, with others, rather than babysit.
And no, I give you shit for not patrolling in general up until recently, because literally you can run on the high-tails of the NPC meta all you want, it won't really go well, but fuck me right?
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Ranylyn - 11-20-2016
Summary: You're butthurt and not listening to reason; In your own words, you don't care about reasons. Because it's an inconvenience to you.
I see no reason for this whinefest thread to continue to be open. Saw hit the nail perfectly on the head. Nothing else needs to be said.