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On the topic of guns - Printable Version

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Re: On the topic of guns - Snake - 12-19-2017

Aaaaaa. I just recalled typing this somewhere so I'm putting this again. Guns could use a big rework at this point if we're aiming for innovations. But those are mere suggestions, nothing I'm actively seeking to convince to be implemented:

Guns could act differently by their type alone.

All Guns - Damage's split on SKI/GUI, 90% SWA is the minimum they get, 120% is the maximum. All guns also will receive far-shot penalties in double or triple (probably lowered by a talent or trait).

"Reload" should be for both guns, regardless if they're main hand or off-hand, it will reset both 'ammo' counts to full.

Launchers:
- 6M to reload.
- Can attack only one time before needing a reload. (Launcher's gimmick, strong but slow)
- Make the damage work like Lantern Bearer, higher damage inflicted the closer to the center of where you've targeted is. (max. 300%, min. 10%)

Shotguns:
- 4M to reload.
- Can attack one/two times before needing a reload (depends on the gun, but is supposed to be like a faster Launcher).
- 4 range triangle AoE by default, with increased critical damage the closer the enemy is (50% damage per square, max of 200%).

Handguns:
- 2M to reload.
- Can attack two/three times before needing a reload (depends on the gun).
- Always ignores 50% of the enemy's DEF/Armor.

Rifles:
- 3M to reload.
- Can attack one/three times before needing a reload (depends on the gun).
- Higher accuracy the farther the enemy is from your position.

Now!

As of why I think WIL shouldn't be really the decisive factor: WIL becoming now mandatory to increase a gun's damage will only make Magic Gunners do more damage and become more tanky against Physical Damage aside of increasing how many Overcharges and skills they can spam freely due to their enormous FP pool, instead of increasing the use/damage of those in general, which is probably the only reason we're complaining that 'guns suck'. We want guns to be acceptable without Magic Gunner, so other classes can use them too. (I actually love how Daggers work, 'VAs are amazing at using them, but their GUI scaling allows them to have their own originality and use for other classes'. Guns could use this treatment.)

Try adding GUI to this instead of WIL. WIL's role is to give Magic more damage, and it doesn't quite benefit any other types of weapon, making wielding them with a melee weapon by the side in some class cases (Hi, Demon Hunter! Hi, Engineer!) kind of terrible to pull off.
Sure, WIL can give some extra FP, Elemental ATK and slots, but there's not a single good WIL weapon to pair up with them aside tomes and Magic. GUI can easily be the best alternative for guns.
As for why GUI? Higher critical damage on guns sure won't be that much of a balance tip, since it requires both hitting AND going through the enemy's critical evade on a RNG, aside that, guns naturally have a terrible critical chance.

TL;DR, GUI instead of WIL, as MG shouldn't be really getting a buff from this. We want guns to be used effectively by other classes other than only MG/Mage Promos.
Guile is a more optimal choice than Willpower, stat wise and what it does.

Re: On the topic of guns - NaitoPsych - 12-19-2017

I agree with Kunai. Guile better fits the weapon itself better than WIL does. While WIL does fit Magic Gunner I think making all Gunners magical would make the class itself lose what makes it special. Also Engineer and Desperado stance do also use guns so having to build WIL with those classes just to use guns with them doesn't fit very well in my opinion.


So yeah, GUI instead of WIL.

Re: On the topic of guns - Fern - 12-19-2017

After playing around with the stat calculator for a while, I'm starting to think that making them split-WIL scaling isn't the way to go.

This is an example of someone building for full gunner, with the proposed scalings. It is possible that making them half-WIL or majority WIL would encourage tank MG about as much as tank Boxer. No LE boosts, here.
[Image: 126f828e51.png]

But, let's say someone wants to be fancy and, I don't know... try to be stylish as Dante while using a sword and a gun. Or anything else that isn't a tome and a gun.

This is a Kensei/Demon Hunter Papilion, trying to afford both a STR weapon and a gun with the proposed scalings. This screenshot also uses Cat's Mask, Lucky Amulet and Kensei's Peerless innate for stats, as well as all LE boosts they can get (that aren't SAN).
[Image: a85a5701c2.png]


Even if they built with Fugu Katsu and Hikari's Blessing in mind, their damage (and general efficiency) would still be way below average. They would be obligated to go Magic Gunner, or pair that class up with Evoker if they wanted to be good at all. This is with all good stat boosts they can get, mind you.
[Image: 4348be1d1f.png]

I'm not saying the proposed scalings are a problem because people can't be Dante. I'm trying to say that, well, they would make trying to do anything moderately fun outside of MG tank with guns... unappealing.

I think it goes without saying that if you drop the WIL in these screenshots to add onto GUI, guns would be a lot more compatible in general, rather than stuck to 1-2 efficient class combos.

Re: On the topic of guns - Lolzytripd - 12-19-2017

Yeah even more so with demon hunter in mind, guns should be Guile focused (shooting their weak spots) than will power.

Re: On the topic of guns - Raigen.Convict - 12-19-2017

From what I recall, bullets are really made of focus or something like that, making guns innately magical in and of themselves, BUT a guile scaling sounds a hell of a lot better from a game standpoint.

Re: On the topic of guns - Lolzytripd - 12-20-2017

guns shoot bullets, bullets propelled by a focus cartridge and not a gun powder based system, its a specific amount of focus as not to damage the gun, having stronger focus won't affect the velocity of the bullet.

Re: On the topic of guns - NaitoPsych - 03-22-2018

Bumping because it's been four months and nothing has happened. Still on board for the GUI scaling suggestion.

Re: On the topic of guns - Haunted Evil Pajamas - 04-16-2018

I am on board for the GUI scaling and even a reload mechanic for sure, but going along the line of how classes have been worked, I want to talk about one of the biggest factors in making a weapon work well, classes, and there are two things I would like to suggest.

First thing is simply the placement of the current classes that incorporate guns, MG (obviously) and Engineer. Engineer seems to be pretty swell in its home as a Rogue promo, I actually like playing around with it, as weird as it is and how people say its super useless and all that. Magic Gunner however, seems horribly out of place as an Archer Promo. If you stop and think to yourself, aside from the fact that a gun is a ranged weapon, what part of "Magic Gunner" shouts "ARCHER" to you? Nothing would be my answer, and heck, you need 10 levels in mage to unlock it, if gunners dont have their own base class (seriously why would you buy a handgun from Pink in the tutorial when you just have the cripple skills and warning shot from archer to 'convince' you?), would it sound at least somewhat logical to make MG a mage promo? While at the moment I we have three promos for it already and we don't want a wicked ball of dung as a class board, I see MG also being solid as a rogue promo, especially if GUI becomes more prominent for gunplay.

Now that that small rant is over (I may have been saying it with a grain of salt due to my attempts in making the most effective gun builds as I can), I would also like to address another gray area, a new gun-based class, I'm talking a class that uses a gun as the focus, not a side thing like DH or....tactician (I've always been confused by why a tactician can equip a gun...). Given that a lot of the more recent classes have been mostly auto-hit based classes (Ranger, Boxer, etc.) I think it might actually be interesting to make an auto-hit based gun class, of course that's just a random thought I had.

Once more, I wrote this with a pinch of salt in my fingers because I do enjoy guns a lot, my favorite weapons, and wild ride being my favorite skill in the game, I enjoy the finesse of whipping out your trusty sidearm and fanning the hammer on some fools with style and grace. So in the long run you can probably think this is just TRO wanting his favorite thing to be noticed, but it's still clear to many that guns do in fact need some catching up.