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+--- Thread: Gone Nuclear (/showthread.php?tid=11564)
RE: Gone Nuclear - Autumn - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 01:23 AM)Rendar Wrote:(11-17-2024, 12:21 AM)Sawrock Wrote:(11-16-2024, 10:02 PM)Rendar Wrote: Impure Element has needed to die for a long, long time.
Elemental Attack Stacking has as well. Personally speaking, Luminary Element should just be changed to thus.
WIL now boosts your starsign's Elemental Attack as if your scaled WIL was that stat (So 60 WIL = 60 Lightning Attack for a Lightning Starsign). Furthermore, it no longer reduces the +1 per 4 wil. So having 60 scaled will is actually 75 lightning attack. This is moreeeee than fine.
Apologies if I'm reading this wrong- please correct me if so. But wouldn't your suggestion be a discount compared to how it currently works?
The math I'm using would be using Meiaquarise as the race, with Kash Ic. Having 70 WIL gives 60 scaled WIL. With how it works right now, you'd need 75 unscaled WIL, leading to a five-point discount.
At lower stat points this still takes effect; having 51 WIL gives 50 scaled WIL. With the current Luminary Element, you'd have 51 elemental attack, but with your suggestion you'd have 62.
Basically, at almost all stat levels it'd be a boost for it to change in such a way.
"At almost all stat levels" isn't the problem. 70 WIL giving 60 scaled will would give you 75 ele attack, in this instance. Which is a normal amount of elemental attack. A fine elemental attack, even.
The problem as it is right now is the extremes. People hard-dumping so much WIL that they have 110 unscaled WIL (which is.. like 64 scaled WIL).. but that 110 unscaled WIL is now 110 Elemental Attack. And if they chug WIL pots, they get an extra +50% or so.. etc etc etc.
I explained it in DMs, bcz I don't wanna out Lolzy's like. Build. But they have 133 unscaled WIL (69.7 scaled).. and 235 Lightning Attack. Utilizing this EXACT scenario situation, they would lose 133 Lightning attack (Putting them at 102 Lightning Attack. Which is nutty without any stat investment but I'm Not Going To Talk About That Right Now). They would get 69 Lightning Attack from the SCALED WIL. Then 17 Lightning attack from 68 Scaled WIL (1 ele attack per 4). Which would turn that into... 86 lightning attack instead of.. 133.
In extreme cases, this is chunking a LOT of elemental attack. In Not-So-Extreme cases, it allows a character concept to flourish like.. A Dark Bard that doesn't want to build Strength for Fire Attack can now instead build WIL.
The only issue here is that there would be no downside at all to Luminary Element anymore, when the downside should still be present, though lesser, such as 1 ele ATK per 8 scaled WIL instead of 4. Given that Luminary Element would effectively become a free trait to pick up for whatever alternate element you want alongside everything else.
RE: Gone Nuclear - Lolzytripd - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 01:23 AM)Rendar Wrote:That 235 is with a mind enhancer(11-17-2024, 12:21 AM)Sawrock Wrote:(11-16-2024, 10:02 PM)Rendar Wrote: Impure Element has needed to die for a long, long time.
Elemental Attack Stacking has as well. Personally speaking, Luminary Element should just be changed to thus.
WIL now boosts your starsign's Elemental Attack as if your scaled WIL was that stat (So 60 WIL = 60 Lightning Attack for a Lightning Starsign). Furthermore, it no longer reduces the +1 per 4 wil. So having 60 scaled will is actually 75 lightning attack. This is moreeeee than fine.
Apologies if I'm reading this wrong- please correct me if so. But wouldn't your suggestion be a discount compared to how it currently works?
The math I'm using would be using Meiaquarise as the race, with Kash Ic. Having 70 WIL gives 60 scaled WIL. With how it works right now, you'd need 75 unscaled WIL, leading to a five-point discount.
At lower stat points this still takes effect; having 51 WIL gives 50 scaled WIL. With the current Luminary Element, you'd have 51 elemental attack, but with your suggestion you'd have 62.
Basically, at almost all stat levels it'd be a boost for it to change in such a way.
"At almost all stat levels" isn't the problem. 70 WIL giving 60 scaled will would give you 75 ele attack, in this instance. Which is a normal amount of elemental attack. A fine elemental attack, even.
The problem as it is right now is the extremes. People hard-dumping so much WIL that they have 110 unscaled WIL (which is.. like 64 scaled WIL).. but that 110 unscaled WIL is now 110 Elemental Attack. And if they chug WIL pots, they get an extra +50% or so.. etc etc etc.
I explained it in DMs, bcz I don't wanna out Lolzy's like. Build. But they have 133 unscaled WIL (69.7 scaled).. and 235 Lightning Attack. Utilizing this EXACT scenario situation, they would lose 133 Lightning attack (Putting them at 102 Lightning Attack. Which is nutty without any stat investment but I'm Not Going To Talk About That Right Now). They would get 69 Lightning Attack from the SCALED WIL. Then 17 Lightning attack from 68 Scaled WIL (1 ele attack per 4). Which would turn that into... 86 lightning attack instead of.. 133.
In extreme cases, this is chunking a LOT of elemental attack. In Not-So-Extreme cases, it allows a character concept to flourish like.. A Dark Bard that doesn't want to build Strength for Fire Attack can now instead build WIL.
I hit on average between 208 and 214 in combat, after spirited redgull and impure element
I think that doing something about impure is fair, but everything is else a farce, I am playing more of a glass cannon than most strength critbuilds, and I'm giving up more to get there, I have hardcapped willpower, maxed cel despite poor racial base and no proper evade gear.
Punishing the build instead of looking into tuning down the method to get there.
Shit when are we nerfing dragon king strength stickers next
RE: Gone Nuclear - Poruku - 11-17-2024
Ppl with 71 scaled str haven't terrorized anyone in years...
But yeah a slight nerf to luminary and impure could be good.
RE: Gone Nuclear - Lolzytripd - 11-17-2024
Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
RE: Gone Nuclear - Rendar - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 05:27 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
SWA being capped at 150 would be a very welcome change actually. Hell. Capping it at 140 would be nice! It'd stop the thermonuclear rocket tag damage meta of "I do 800 damage in 1 turn to a single target even though they're a tank."
71 Scaled Strength also doesn't inherently turbo-murder people. Because it's not luminary will. Giving benefits from unscaled.
Edit: 1 ele attack per 8 would work fine for me, @Autumn.
RE: Gone Nuclear - Lolzytripd - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 02:28 PM)Rendar Wrote:This still sounds like a convoluted way to ask for a global Dr buff.(11-17-2024, 05:27 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
SWA being capped at 150 would be a very welcome change actually. Hell. Capping it at 140 would be nice! It'd stop the thermonuclear rocket tag damage meta of "I do 800 damage in 1 turn to a single target even though they're a tank."
71 Scaled Strength also doesn't inherently turbo-murder people. Because it's not luminary will. Giving benefits from unscaled.
Edit: 1 ele attack per 8 would work fine for me, @Autumn.
nerfing swa and elemental attack stacking is inversely a DR buff, when DR stacking is the biggest problem right now.
Like okay I agree that the damage from Dancer dances is absurd with elemental attack builds, but from normal skills its fine
Fix the actual damn problems, either give dance skills proper scaling of ele attaack + swa, Rework RM, ect
rework va/remove Impure element
stop trying to homogenize builds
RE: Gone Nuclear - Autumn - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 05:27 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
Lolzy, I don't really think the whatabout-isms are helping here, you also seem to be very defensive when this thread isn't about you, its been a problem for a very long time beyond what you've accomplished, we had these builds back in G6 too and back in pre-GR2.
The problem lies in the elemental ATKs themselves, not the dances or youkai evokes, on normal builds the dances deal comparable damage to regular spells, changing those would make having absurdly high elemental ATK the only builds available for them which is not fair, also this is not to say I don't think SWA should be lower either, to imply that I wouldn't have thoughts on how SWA interacts with certain skills would just be incorrect.
This is not an attack on playing an elemental specialist, this is addressing the sheer ridiculousness of the numbers currently achievable by these builds, if you cannot acknowledge just from a objective point of view how much getting 140-150+ elemental ATK is, let alone 200+, then there is nothing more for me to discuss with you. .
RE: Gone Nuclear - Lolzytripd - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 09:02 PM)Autumn Wrote:Why only now, why not back then, as you've said this was achievable back in g6 ( my whole build is g6 items except for 6 lightning attack from thunderheart enchants)(11-17-2024, 05:27 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
Lolzy, I don't really think the whatabout-isms are helping here, you also seem to be very defensive when this thread isn't about you, its been a problem for a very long time beyond what you've accomplished, we had these builds back in G6 too and back in pre-GR2.
The problem lies in the elemental ATKs themselves, not the dances or youkai evokes, on normal builds the dances deal comparable damage to regular spells, changing those would make having absurdly high elemental ATK the only builds available for them which is not fair, also this is not to say I don't think SWA should be lower either, to imply that I wouldn't have thoughts on how SWA interacts with certain skills would just be incorrect.
This is not an attack on playing an elemental specialist, this is addressing the sheer ridiculousness of the numbers currently achievable by these builds, if you cannot acknowledge just from a objective point of view how much getting 140-150+ elemental ATK is, let alone 200+, then there is nothing more for me to discuss with you. .
Why aren't we addressing how the elemental attack is leveraged instead?
And no, with the amount of dr available and how easy it is to stack elemental resist these days I don't think being able to build 140-150 pre combat elemental attack
RE: Gone Nuclear - Autumn - 11-17-2024
(11-17-2024, 11:09 PM)Lolzytripd Wrote:(11-17-2024, 09:02 PM)Autumn Wrote:Why only now, why not back then, as you've said this was achievable back in g6 ( my whole build is g6 items except for 6 lightning attack from thunderheart enchants)(11-17-2024, 05:27 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: Feels like a slippery slope, gonna soft cap swa at 150 next too, this to me feels like an attack on the fantasy of playing an elemental specialist.
Lolzy, I don't really think the whatabout-isms are helping here, you also seem to be very defensive when this thread isn't about you, its been a problem for a very long time beyond what you've accomplished, we had these builds back in G6 too and back in pre-GR2.
The problem lies in the elemental ATKs themselves, not the dances or youkai evokes, on normal builds the dances deal comparable damage to regular spells, changing those would make having absurdly high elemental ATK the only builds available for them which is not fair, also this is not to say I don't think SWA should be lower either, to imply that I wouldn't have thoughts on how SWA interacts with certain skills would just be incorrect.
This is not an attack on playing an elemental specialist, this is addressing the sheer ridiculousness of the numbers currently achievable by these builds, if you cannot acknowledge just from a objective point of view how much getting 140-150+ elemental ATK is, let alone 200+, then there is nothing more for me to discuss with you. .
Why aren't we addressing how the elemental attack is leveraged instead?
And no, with the amount of dr available and how easy it is to stack elemental resist these days I don't think being able to build 140-150 pre combat elemental attack
Look back in a lot of the previous patch notes and you will see that it has been attempted many times before, it resulted in Youkai evokes being nerfed, it resulted in dance scalings being nerfed, among many other things, both of these are actually rather normal now, there are some outliers still like Thunder Steps but for the most part they aren't actually that much better than some of their SWA counterparts, unless of course you have so much elemental ATK that you deal much more damage than SWA could ever hope to achieve on it's own, even Firebird, the SWA class, doesn't get to the numbers that elemental ATK can potentially get to.
It has been attempted many times, and no I don't think Solblader's or Ghost's DR is the only reason why you should be allowed to achieve such ridiculous numbers, elemental specialization should look more in the 100-130 range, not beyond that. The solution to damage creep is to build to survive, that is why people build crit evade, that is why people build for massive swathes of magic DR, why they build elemental resistance vs Verglas etc.
RE: Gone Nuclear - pilcrow - 11-18-2024
(11-17-2024, 03:26 PM)Lolzytripd Wrote: This still sounds like a convoluted way to ask for a global Dr buff.
nerfing swa and elemental attack stacking is inversely a DR buff, when DR stacking is the biggest problem right now.
it really isn't. a dr buff would overwhelmingly hose people at the lower end of the scale, and exclusively so even. people at the extreme end of damage stacking... would simply not be affected as much, because they're already at the extreme end where dr is less impactful.
on the other hand, softcapping damage at some point in the pipeline means that building into that extreme simply means you hit diminishing returns (like you already do with stats), and thus have to actually play the game.
a build that goes all-in to a single thing to deal obscene, possibly even fight-ending amounts of damage in one action is not exactly healthy for the game, just like a build that goes all-in to ensure that nobody whatsoever can damage it isn't either - and nobody is going to argue that we should kill stat softcaps so you can buff DEF and RES to 100% immunity levels, for example.
there's definitely a conversation to be had about dr stacking, however, but i don't believe it's here.
(also, targeting elem. atk and swa specifically means that you level out the extreme ends of most damage sources across the game, in perpetuity. there is ALWAYS going to be a skill that is overtuned, but the ability to abuse it becomes more limited if the numbers plugged into it themselves are limited.
just focusing on patching 'the most bad thing at the time' means you're playing whack-a-mole at best. see: holy shield.)